Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]

Times Leader ^ | 05 October 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

[blowfish]

ID is actually based on lots of observable evidence and facts.

Please. 'We don't yet understand how something works' is not positive evidence of anything except the observer's lack of understanding.

[narby]

Why not, evolution is a religion.

Is this comment supposed to bring ID up to the level of evolution? Or bring evolution down to the level of your religion?

[shuckmaster]

ID is actually based on lots of observable evidence and facts.

Lots? Show me ONE!

[Thatcherite]

The main argument for intelligent design is based on scientific observation. The conclusion of IDers is, that after observing the facts, evolution does not and cannot reasonably account for life as it currently exists; including specific parts of the bodies of various non-plant life form

Your two statements don't connect. Hurling bricks (whether in error or correctly) at the theory of evolution does not for one instant validate a Theory of ID (whatever that may be). You are trying to treat ID as a default answer, to be used if you can invalidate ToE. ID must stand or fall on its own merits (and I wish it luck attempting to do so, as the sum total of ID theory and attempts to create ID theory by its supporters appears to be zip, zilch, nada).

[b_sharp]

"How many times have you asked that question and completely ignored the answers you were given?

It seems he is still having trouble connecting the dots.

The artiodactyl to cetacean sequence looks pretty complete to me. To show evidence of, therefore the existence of, transition between organisms, we only need one sequence. All else is just gravy.

[shuckmaster]

This is not speculation?

It's a theory until you prove it wrong.

[narby]

I don't understand evolution ... none here has the ability to explain it to me

Is that because they're such lousy teachers? Or because your ability to learn is that weak?

[Junior]

The CrevoSci Library A service of Darwin Central "The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

1. 2005-10-05 Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]
2. 2005-10-05 The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2005 goes to Yves Chauvin, Robert H. Grubbs and Richard R. Schrock
3. 2005-10-04 A space station view on giant lightning (May play role in global warming!)
4. 2005-10-04 Ancient Peruvians Loved Their Spuds
5. 2005-10-04 "Cardinal backs evolution and ""intelligent design"""
6. 2005-10-04 Potatoes came from Peru, US study finds
7. 2005-10-04 Space Scientists Seek Sprites, Elves and Jets
8. 2005-10-04 Spider fooled into sex by drop-dead male
9. 2005-10-04 The Bottom Line: Darwinism Promotes Social Disintegration
10. 2005-10-04 The Nobel Prize in Physics 2005 is awarded to Roy J. Glauber, John L. Hall and Theodor W. Hänsch
11. 2005-10-03 Live from Pennsylvania: Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
12. 2005-10-03 Returning to Dover [evolution trial in Dover, PA: week 2]
13. 2005-10-03 Systemic determinants of gene evolution and function
14. 2005-10-03 The timeless truth of creation
15. 2005-10-01 ‘Why?’ versus ‘How?’ [evolution trial in Dover, PA, end of week one]
16. 2005-10-01 Eugenie Scott Makes False Claims About Peer-Reviewed Paper on MSNBC
17. 2005-10-01 For the Anti-Evolutionists, Hope in High Places
18. 2005-10-01 Liars’ brains make fibbing come naturally
19. 2005-10-01 Study: Sun's Changes to Blame for Part of Global Warming
20. 2005-10-01 That Famous Equation and You
21. 2005-09-30 [Pennsylvania] Gov. Rendell backs evolution
22. 2005-09-30 150 attend meeting on 'stupid' theory (including Darwin's great-grandson)
23. 2005-09-30 A remarkable Cassini picture: Hyperion (moon of Saturn)
24. 2005-09-30 An Intelligent Design for Education
25. 2005-09-30 Genes Tied To Recent Brain Evolution
26. 2005-09-30 Grow Some Testables: Intelligent design ducks the rigors of science.
27. 2005-09-30 Orthodoxy and Creationism
28. 2005-09-30 Science and Scripture - 'Intelligent design' theory definitely belongs in biology class
29. 2005-09-30 Spider 'is 20 million years old'
30. 2005-09-30 The ‘Darwinist Inquisition’ Starts Another Round
31. 2005-09-30 The Beauty of Branes [Cosmology & Lisa Randall]
32. 2005-09-30 The Buckingham school: No civil liberties allowed
33. 2005-09-29 Darwin and Malthus
34. 2005-09-29 Have you ever really looked at intelligent design?
35. 2005-09-29 How Leonardo gave top surgeon change of heart
36. 2005-09-29 In defense of science
37. 2005-09-29 Intelligent Design Advocates Fight Back
38. 2005-09-29 No Science, Please – We’re British
39. 2005-09-29 Poll: Most doctors (63%) favor evolution theory over I.D. (However, Protestant Doctors...)
40. 2005-09-29 Religious idea forced on classes, court told
41. 2005-09-29 Theory of Evolution -- Not Intelligent Design -- Is Most Like Creationism
42. 2005-09-29 Witness: 'Intelligent Design' doesn't qualify as science [Day 4 of trial in Dover, PA]

---

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of October:
 

2004-10-10 Antonello 1998-10-18 AZLiberty 1999-10-14 blam 2000-10-19 cogitator 2001-10-21 Coyoteman 2004-10-26 curiosity 1998-10-29 Dataman 2000-10-29 dila813 2001-10-14 dread78645

1998-10-03 Elsie 1998-10-17 f.Christian 2002-10-08 FairOpinion 2001-10-26 Genesis defender 2000-10-09 Gil4 2000-10-08 guitarist 2004-10-10 joeclarke 1998-10-03 js1138

2000-10-08 LibWhacker 2002-10-25 m1-lightning 2001-10-10 Michael_Michaelangelo 2001-10-09 Mother Abigail 2004-10-25 MRMEAN 2004-10-03 Nicholas Conradin 1999-10-28 PatrickHenry 1998-10-01 Physicist

1998-10-25 plain talk 2005-10-04 ret_medic 2001-10-23 RightWingNilla 2004-10-09 snarks_when_bored 2002-10-22 sumocide 2004-10-21 WildHorseCrash 2001-10-23 yankeedame 2002-10-20 Z in Oregon

---

In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:

---

ALS Area Freeper Aric2000 Askel5 bluepistolero churchillbuff ConservababeJen DittoJed2

Ed Current f.Christian followerofchrist goodseedhomeschool gore3000 Jedigirl JesseShurun Le-Roy

Marathon medved metacognative Modernman Ogmios peg the prophet Phoroneus ret_medic

RickyJ SeaLion Shubi Tomax tpaine WaveThatFlag xm177e2

Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!
 

[shuckmaster]

To show evidence of, therefore the existence of, transition between organisms, we only need one sequence. All else is just gravy.

But, how can you prove a forest exists if one of the trees is unaccounted for?

[malakhi]

I suppose you would just want witnesses on the stand that support your case.

Unfortunately, none of the shining lights of ID seem to be very eager to testify.

[b_sharp]

It's always nice when you can make your point just using 6 letters. Short and to the point.

[js1138]

She's a priestess wannbe in High Leftist Circles. What an utter shock.

Perhaps you will tell us in some detail what's so leftist about her papers compared to, say, those of Tom Paine.

[narby]

The conclusion of IDers is, that after observing the facts, evolution does not and cannot reasonably account for life as it currently exists;

Translation: Science doesn't have all the answers, so God exists.

I'm sure your predecessors said the same thing about lightning a few centuries ago. That it was "proof of God".

Your problem is that you depend on there being unexplainable phenomena as your evidence of God, but unexplainable phenomena are getting fewer every day.

Wouldn't you be better off to believe that God worked WITH the natural world, rather than apart from it? That way you can say that "God raised up the sun this morning, and brought the rain in the afternoon", rather than saying that conservation of energy turned the earth toward the sun but God created the species in an instant, even though there's no evidence to support that conclusion.

You are imagining a God hiding in the mysteries of life, rather than a God that is all around you and can be studied to discover that He created species by a process we call "evolution".

[connectthedots]

Please. 'We don't yet understand how something works' is not positive evidence of anything except the observer's lack of understanding.

I have never claimed that there is positive evidence for ID, have I? there is plenty of evidence that casts serious doubt on the feasibility of Darwinian evolution.

The conclusion of ID is that if evolution is not true, there must be some other cause. ID is a reasonable explanation absent a third, fourth or any other potential explanation.

Most Christians, and I would include myself, would conclude that that intelligent force is the God of the Bible. My faith in God is not based on ID; it is based on the historical truth of the Bible (also confirmed by secular historians) and the historical record of the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. There must have been some spectacular about Christ that the history of the world is indexed in relation to the date of his birth.

There are other IDers who would simply conclude that there is some, unknown to them, designer. Behe would fit in that category.

What evolutionists refuse to admit is that their belief in evolution comes, at least in part, from a religious point of view.

[Matchett-PI]

Patrick Henry posts links to these "serious scientists" all the time. Who are these people?

They are definately following in the footsteps of their mentor:

"Origin of man now proved. -- Metaphysics must flourish. - He who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke." --- Darwin, Notebook M, August 16, 1838

Metaphysics: Beyond nature - a branch of philosophy concerned with the ultimate nature of existence. A priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment.

The "scientific qualifications" of Barbara Carroll Forrest:

B.A., English, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1974 - M.A., Philosophy, Louisiana State University, 1978 - Ph.D., Philosophy, Tulane University, 1988

Teaching positions:

Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 2002 - Present
Associate Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1994-2002
Assistant Professor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1989-1994
Full-time Instructor of Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1988-1989
Part-time Instructor in Philosophy, Southeastern Louisiana University, 1981-1988

Among her awards: "Friend of Darwin" Award, National Center for Science Education, March 1998

Conference Presentations [excerpts]:

"A Critical Philosophical Analysis of the Moral Distinction Between Active and Passive Euthanasia," Mid-South Sociological Association, Jackson, MS, November, 1978.

"Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," and "The Possibility of Meaning in Human Evolution," Science and Society Conference. Russian Academy of Sciences; Institute of the History of Natural Sciences and Technology; Faculty of Philosophy, St. Petersburg State University. St Petersburg, Russia, June 19-25, 1999.

"Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," at Science and God: A Naturalistic Examination of Cosmology, the Anthropic Principle, and Design Theories. Society of Humanist Philosophers, Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, September 25-26, 1999.

Lectures/Presentations [excerpts]:

"Creation and Evolution: A Philosophical View of the Concept of Balanced Treatment." Public forum: "Evolution and Creationism in Louisiana Public Schools," SLU, March 31, 1981.

"The Influence of Darwin on 19th- and 20th-Century Culture," Dept. of Biological Sciences, Southeastern Louisiana University, April 21, 1995. ...

Journal Articles [excerpt]: "An Analysis of the Causal Interpretation of Karl Marx's Theory of History," Lamar Journal of the Humanities, Spring 1989.

...Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism: Clarifying the Connection," Philo, Fall-Winter 2000.

"The Possibility of Meaning in Human Evolution," Zygon, December 2000.

Etc., etc., HERE

*

The "scientific qualifications of James Still:

James Still B.A., Philosophy, University of Minnesota - "...helped to build and maintain the Secular Web. ... President of the Internet Infidels from 2000 until 2002. ..Compulsively and deterministically dwells on philosophical problems and issues, ..epistemology, religion......an avid yoga practitioner ... reads widely in Eastern mysticism" , etc., etc., @ Infidels.org

[b_sharp]

"Your info at your link is laced through and through with the words 'probably' and 'possible; so much so that it amounts to a tremendous amount of speculation. Speculation can hardly be called factual.

All theories are laced with words such as those to show the tentative nature of science. You cannot complain about the tentative language used by evolution without expanding the complaint to cover all other sciences.

If your intent is to call all science false, do so without singling out the study of evolution for special attention.

As pointed out by many, there are no sciences that are '100% proven'. This is true of physics and math as well. Quantum physics has many questions and Godel has shown our inability to prove that math is self consistent.

[Publius6961]

How about that Supreme nominee, a Bible thumper????

Please cite the last time the nominee made the news thumping a bible!
On the other hand, perverts and the love that "dare not speak its name" can't seem to STFU!

[js1138]

Not exactly an upper tier university You mean. for instance, compared with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where William Dembski, high-priest of ID, plies his trade?

How about the Univerity of Sarasota, where ICR's long time curriculum director got his mail-order diploma?

[shuckmaster]

there is plenty of evidence that casts serious doubt on the feasibility of Darwinian evolution.

Let's see it! You don't have to go to all the trouble to show us all of it. Just one little piece of the evidence you have plenty of will do,