Grow Some Testables: Intelligent design ducks the rigors of science.

Slate.com ^ | Sept. 29, 2005 | William Saletan

[Dimensio]

Evidence of that "in crowd" mentality is all over these threads. Anyone with a reasonable doubt is a blaspheming apostate and doesn't even deserve a hearing. That's why I pretty much avoid these threads.

Well, that and you don't have an actual argument against the theory of evolution, nor do you have any arguments in favour for an alternative explanation.

[jennyp]

In addition to radiation, there's the normal thermal energy that causes all molecules to spend all their time jiggling around & bumping up against each other. Chemistry at the molecular level isn't quite as clean & neat as the computer animations make it look. :-)

Whether the ultimate causes of specific mutations are truly unpredictable or merely astronomically difficult to trace, I just assume that they'll always be random as far as we'll ever be able to tell.

IIRC, Miller's overall point was that God created a universe with the capability of surprising Him. When a species arose that had the ability to have a relationship with Him, that was the species He decided to have a relationship back with.

If I did believe in God, both of those points would be quite compelling to me. If I were a God who had already lived for an infinite length of time, was alone (no other Gods out there in my world), and already all-knowing, such a surprising universe would be the only kind that could possibly alleviate my boredom & lonliness.

(3) And if we push everyhting back to quantum physics, aren't we again saying, "This is beyond the universe as we know it" -- saying essentially that it's inexplicable? Doesn't that put us beyond the mechanistic cause-effect, hypothesis-test paradigm of naturalistic science again?

Yes, but that wouldn't push back science any. Regardless of how God manipulated the world (whether thru quantum physics or some more ham-handed intervention on a macroscopic scale), the evidence would not be detectable to science. Perhaps if a scientist caught a miracle on tape in real-time you could mount a defensible argument that a miracle was indeed happening. But with evolution we only have the end results of events that happened in the deep past. In this situation you simply cannot distinguish between a miracle and a natural phenomenon that is currently not understood.

[Mrs. Don-o]

There a lot of things that can cause DNA to be altered: radiation, chemicals, 'normal' biochemical processes. I don't think you'll find any 'spontaneous' changes that aren't caused by an external physical event. DNA is actually a fairly stable chemical, relatively speaking.

Thank you, blowfish, for addressing my question.

Miller gave me the impression that transcription errors in DNA replication are fairly frequent: segments being deleted, or switched around, or doubled, or split up and inserted into other parts of the genome, etc.

That surprised me.

Is there evidence that the genome itself contains instructions for transcription variations? I'm thinking of a kind of in-built randomness generator.

And again, do quantum events have any role (small, large) in the formation of, say, isomers that lead to mutations?

I know so little about it, I may not even be asking the question correctly. Please bear with me. Inquiring minds...!

[Ready2go]

Because ID can't be argued scientificaly.

---

Howdy there William Creel and lurkers!

Perhaps it can...if we start looking at it from the future instead of the past?

None of us on either side can prove the past. None of us were there to witness it, but we now have millions of folks that have seen what their future holds in store for them.

Millions have had a NDE and have reported back to us what they experienced.

For all you lurkers setting on the fence I'd like to suggest you do some research for yourself...after all it IS YOUR eternity that you're messing around with. :)

(And please remember all of our dear die hard Evol's here are only taking it on FAITH as to what they believe. They believe what they were taught and are teaching others what they believe.)

Their views of the future is once you die it's all over.

But which makes more sense...fretting about how we got here? Or where we're going when we die?

It's a easy question for me...I want to know where I'm spending eternity.

There's lots of research going on with NDE's (Near Death Experiences)and I love reading all the little kids NDE's.

I want to post a snippet from Peter Fenwick, M.D., F.R.C.Psych.

Prospective Studies of NDEs

Now, none of you will know this study because it is not published yet. It is a new prospective study from the U.K., conducted by Dan Shears at Guy’s Hospital. He was the doctor on the meningitis ward and questioned the 90 percent of children who had recovered from meningitis.

What he found was very similar to Melvin Morse’s retrospective findings (Morse and Perry, 1990), but, again, Shears’ study was prospective, so he knew the medical condition of the children involved. Of the children he questioned, one, a 3½-year-old boy, three months after the meningococcal disease, said that when he had been ill, ‘‘Two angels took me: a big angel and a boy angel.’’ He met with his grandfather and played with toys and other children, and ‘‘then the angels brought me back.’’ It was a lovely, simple, experience – and his grandfather had died nine days after the child had been admitted to the hospital, which is interesting.

Another 4-year-old boy, two weeks after his discharge from hospital, reported, ‘‘A man with wings came to see me while I was in hospital. I could see him out of the corner of my eye.’’ He went on to describe an out-of-body experience. He recalled his still-living grandmother talking to him at his bedside, and he could not tell her to shut up, as he was ‘‘asleep.’’ So he was outside himself and watching. He was also adamant that his grandmother knew who this winged man was, but I do not think she did; I do not think she could see him.

A 7-year-old girl described having an experience in the pediatric intensive care unit of St. Mary’s Hospital. She described feeling very calm and peaceful, clearly the beginnings of a near-death experience. She was observing herself from the end of the bed, and, again, she was standing next to a boy whom she did not know.

I have a videotaped account for you, which I will play now. The child is 3 years old and has reflex anoxic seizures in which her heart stops. During the time that she is unconscious she has out-of-body experiences. Here she is describing how, in one of these episodes, she goes up to the ceiling and then watches her mother do the resuscitation process ‘‘all wrong’’:

Narrator: Most of us have preconceived ideas about such experiences, but this little girl was barely 3 years old when she described an out-of-body experience to her mother.

Mother: She was telling me that she goes, and she goes up, and she’s watching herself. Now, I did find it amazing. I was speechless.

Narrator: She suffers from a rare illness called reflex anoxic seizures, which temporarily stop her heart beating. In her short life, she has clinically died over 20 times.

Mother: She has no vital signs; she has no respiration, no pulse, no heartbeat, no anything. She turns from a blue to an ashen, and black, I would say, lips.

Narrator: Fortunately, she normally recovers from a seizure within a minute, but as she grew older, she began to talk to her mother about them.

Mother: She watches herself, and then, she tells me, again, her words, she ‘‘clicks’’ back in.

Narrator: On one occasion, she collapsed in her mother’s bedroom. Her mother placed her in the recovery position and soothed her. When the child ‘‘came round,’’ she was furious with her mother for not placing her on the floor as they’d been taught by the doctor.

Mother: But when she came back, I mean, she had told me what I had done and how I did it wrong and what I’d said.

Narrator to child: Where do you go?

Child: Up in the ceiling.

Narrator: Up in the ceiling! Can you tell me what it’s like?

Child: I see Mommy helping me.

There are good reasons for studying childhood NDEs. Very few children will have been exposed to the idea of NDEs. Young children especially have a poorly formed view of the idea and permanence of death.

Children whose parents have no religious views or convictions are even less likely to have been told about what to expect at death. In his 1989 paper, Harvey Irwin suggested that children who had had no religious instruction would be ideal to test the sociocultural conditioning hypothesis against the paranormal-spiritual hypothesis. In other words, if kids who do not know about NDEs have an NDE, you cannot explain it by saying they have learnt about it as a cultural experience.

http://iands.org/research/fenwick2.php

[LiteKeeper]

I agree. I have come to the conclusion that I will read original articles, but I am not interested in beating my head against the wall. I have over and over again asked pointed questions, given pointed, logical answers, and in return I have been ridiculed and belittled - no one wants to engage in real discussion. It amounts to throwing mud, and I don't need it.

[little jeremiah]

Occasionally I ping one list to an evo/ thread, but rarely bother to reply to any of the evo-fundies. It's no use. It's like stepping in something unpleasant. No upside to it.

[little jeremiah]

Naturally, those who have an a priori belief system that does not admit the existence of the soul apart from the body won't even bother to read such accounts. But it's good that various professionals are doing the research. More than one doctor has become convinced that the soul indeed does exist separately from the existence of the body because of hearing of patients' experiences.

[jennyp]

Unfortunately, NDEs can also be induced by ketamine, thereby leading to the hypothesis that NDEs are byproducts of a protective chemical process in the brain:

When glutamate is present in excess, neurones die via a process called excitotoxicity. Conditions which have been proven to lead to excessive release of glutamate include hypoxia/ischaemia, epilepsy and hypoglycaemia (e.g. Rothman, 1984; Rothman and Olney, 1986, 1987). Blockade of PCP receptors prevents cell death from excitotoxicity (e.g. Rothman et al., 1987). The brain may thus have a protective mechanism against a glutamate flood: release of a counter-flood of substances which block PCP receptors, preventing neuronal death. Considering the sophistication of the brain's many known defences, and the vulnerability of neurones to hypoxia, a protective mechanism against excitotoxicity seems very likely. This is the only speculation in the process outlined above: the other statements are strongly supported by experimental evidence (Benveniste et al.,1984; Simon et al., 1984; Ben-Ari, 1985; King and Dingledine, 1986; Rothman et al., 1987; Westerberg et al., 1987; Hoyer and Nitsch, 1989). A peptide called a-endopsychosin, which binds to the PCP receptor, has been found in the brain (Quirion et al., 1984). Certain ions such as magnesium and zinc also act as endogenous PCP channel blockers (Thomson, 1986; Westbrook and Mayer, 1987; Cotman, Monaghan and Ganong, 1988), and it is possible that these ions are centrally involved in producing NDE's.

Also, as I understand it, hospitals regularly tape papers with symbols, letters, numbers, etc. to the tops of the machines that are wheeled in & out of the rooms. (So a normal person can't see them but they could if they truly had been floating at the ceiling.) I have never read any reports of those patients who perceived themselves to be floating above themselves accurately describing what was written on those papers.

Sorry.

[BMCDA]

Also, as I understand it, hospitals regularly tape papers with symbols, letters, numbers, etc. to the tops of the machines that are wheeled in & out of the rooms. (So a normal person can't see them but they could if they truly had been floating at the ceiling.) I have never read any reports of those patients who perceived themselves to be floating above themselves accurately describing what was written on those papers.

Hmmm, is it something like:

If you can read this you are dead.

;^)

[ReignOfError]

Well couldn't one "research" the minds of the evolutionists made possible by these evolutionary protection threads?

I have no earthly idea what you're trying to say here.

[JNL]

But there is an upside, there's nothing like watching a thread grow to 1000-2000 posts LOL.

[JNL]

No more likely,

If you can read this, there will be additional charges added to you already quite large bill. If you have any questions regarding billing, please contact us @ 1-800-555-5555. As you are most likely or almost dead, we assure you that your relatives are feeling your pain. In a couple of minutes, when we give them the bill, they will be feeling an altogether new pain....

Thank you and we hope to serve you better in the future.

[Ready2go]

Naturally, those who have an a priori belief system that does not admit the existence of the soul apart from the body won't even bother to read such accounts. But it's good that various professionals are doing the research. More than one doctor has become convinced that the soul indeed does exist separately from the existence of the body because of hearing of patients' experiences.

---

Amen little jeremiah

I enjoyed listening to Dr. Rawlings who was a atheist until he heard his patient yelling out "don't let me die I'm in Hell" while they were giving him CPR.

Dr. Maurice Rawlings, MD, a heart surgeon, has written a number of books on the near death experience and clearly shows from his own practice and the experiences of his patients, that not everyone goes to the light when they die, where there is total love.

He has written of many patients being resuscitated on the operating table and speaking about being in hell, where there was a real devil and demons, and where the inhabitants were tormented with fire.

Dr. Rawlings writes that these people are a lot more reluctant to talk about it than those who went to the good place.

To our Lurkers here...I'd highly recommend his books "To Hell and Back" and "Beyond Death's Door".

I'm afraid some of our friends here will be having a experience such as Howard Storm had...But maybe they won't have a 2nd chance at life?


Saved From Hell
Rev. Howard Storm's near-death experience

Before his near-death experience, Rev. Howard Storm, a Professor of Art at Northern Kentucky University, was not a very pleasant man. He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn’t find joy in anything. Anything that wasn’t seen, touched, or felt, he had no faith in. He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else.

On June 1, 1985, at the age of 38, Howard Storm had a near-death experience due to a perforation of the stomach and his life was forever changed. His near-death experience is one of the most profound, if not the most profound, afterlife experience I have ever documented. His life was so immensely changed after his near-death experience that he resigned as a professor and devoted his time to attending the United Theological Seminary to become a United Church of Christ minister. The following is the account of Pastor Howard Storm's near-death experience, which is an excerpt from his book, My Descent Into Death.



To read more go here: http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

[Ready2go]

Howdy there jennyp;

Maybe you'd like to read some more?

People Have NDEs While Brain Dead

Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose latest book, Light and Death, includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life.

The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest.

It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head.

In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead.

When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table.

Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation.

At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever. At some point, Pam's consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it where her deceased relatives and friends were waiting including her long-dead grandmother.

Pam's NDE ended when her deceased uncle led her back to her body for her to reentered it. Pam compared the feeling of reentering her dead body to "plunging into a pool of ice." The following is Pam Reynolds' account of her NDE in her own words.

---

Pam Reynolds' NDE

The next thing I recall was the sound: It was a Natural "D." As I listened to the sound, I felt it was pulling me out of the top of my head. The further out of my body I got, the more clear the tone became.

I had the impression it was like a road, a frequency that you go on ... I remember seeing several things in the operating room when I was looking down. It was the most aware that I think that I have ever been in my entire life ...I was metaphorically sitting on [the doctor's] shoulder. It was not like normal vision. It was brighter and more focused and clearer than normal vision ... There was so much in the operating room that I didn't recognize, and so many people.

I thought the way they had my head shaved was very peculiar. I expected them to take all of the hair, but they did not ...

The saw-thing that I hated the sound of looked like an electric toothbrush and it had a dent in it, a groove at the top where the saw appeared to go into the handle, but it didn't ... And the saw had interchangeable blades, too, but these blades were in what looked like a socket wrench case ... I heard the saw crank up. I didn't see them use it on my head, but I think I heard it being used on something. It was humming at a relatively high pitch and then all of a sudden it went Brrrrrrrrr! like that.

Someone said something about my veins and arteries being very small. I believe it was a female voice and that it was Dr. Murray, but I'm not sure. She was the cardiologist. I remember thinking that I should have told her about that ... I remember the heart-lung machine. I didn't like the respirator ... I remember a lot of tools and instruments that I did not readily recognize.

There was a sensation like being pulled, but not against your will. I was going on my own accord because I wanted to go. I have different metaphors to try to explain this. It was like the Wizard of Oz - being taken up in a tornado vortex, only you're not spinning around like you've got vertigo.

You're very focused and you have a place to go. The feeling was like going up in an elevator real fast. And there was a sensation, but it wasn't a bodily, physical sensation. It was like a tunnel but it wasn't a tunnel.

At some point very early in the tunnel vortex I became aware of my grandmother calling me. But I didn't hear her call me with my ears ... It was a clearer hearing than with my ears. I trust that sense more than I trust my own ears.

The feeling was that she wanted me to come to her, so I continued with no fear down the shaft. It's a dark shaft that I went through, and at the very end there was this very little tiny pinpoint of light that kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

The light was incredibly bright, like sitting in the middle of a light bulb. It was so bright that I put my hands in front of my face fully expecting to see them and I could not. But I knew they were there. Not from a sense of touch. Again, it's terribly hard to explain, but I knew they were there ...

I noticed that as I began to discern different figures in the light - and they were all covered with light, they were light, and had light permeating all around them - they began to form shapes I could recognize and understand. I could see that one of them was my grandmother. I don't know if it was reality or a projection, but I would know my grandmother, the sound of her, anytime, anywhere.

Everyone I saw, looking back on it, fit perfectly into my understanding of what that person looked like at their best during their lives.

I recognized a lot of people. My uncle Gene was there. So was my great-great-Aunt Maggie, who was really a cousin. On Papa's side of the family, my grandfather was there ... They were specifically taking care of me, looking after me.

They would not permit me to go further ... It was communicated to me - that's the best way I know how to say it, because they didn't speak like I'm speaking - that if I went all the way into the light something would happen to me physically. They would be unable to put this me back into the body me, like I had gone too far and they couldn't reconnect. So they wouldn't let me go anywhere or do anything.

I wanted to go into the light, but I also wanted to come back. I had children to be reared. It was like watching a movie on fast-forward on your VCR: You get the general idea, but the individual freeze-frames are not slow enough to get detail.

Then they [deceased relatives] were feeding me. They were not doing this through my mouth, like with food, but they were nourishing me with something. The only way I know how to put it is something sparkly.

Sparkles is the image that I get. I definitely recall the sensation of being nurtured and being fed and being made strong. I know it sounds funny, because obviously it wasn't a physical thing, but inside the experience I felt physically strong, ready for whatever.

My grandmother didn't take me back through the tunnel, or even send me back or ask me to go. She just looked up at me. I expected to go with her, but it was communicated to me that she just didn't think she would do that. My uncle said he would do it. He's the one who took me back through the end of the tunnel. Everything was fine. I did want to go.

But then I got to the end of it and saw the thing, my body. I didn't want to get into it ... It looked terrible, like a train wreck. It looked like what it was: dead. I believe it was covered. It scared me and I didn't want to look at it.

It was communicated to me that it was like jumping into a swimming pool. No problem, just jump right into the swimming pool. I didn't want to, but I guess I was late or something because he [the uncle] pushed me. I felt a definite repelling and at the same time a pulling from the body. The body was pulling and the tunnel was pushing ... It was like diving into a pool of ice water ... It hurt!

When I came back, they were playing Hotel California and the line was "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave." I mentioned [later] to Dr. Brown that that was incredibly insensitive and he told me that I needed to sleep more. [laughter] When I regained consciousness, I was still on the respirator.

---

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

"The brain isn’t functioning. It’s not there. It’s destroyed. It’s abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don’t know what’s happening and the brain isn’t working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won’t remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

[psychoknk]

Did you guys read the article? Or just the excerpt and the comments? The part I want to quote is longer than the excerpt, so I will try to paraphrase.

In Darwin's Black Box, by Michael Behe, an experiment is given that would supposedly test ID. Behe feels that a unintelligent process could not give rise to complex characteristics, like a flagellum in bacteria. He then proposes the following experiment to test that: put bacteria in an environment where a motile bacteria would have a higher chance of success. Wait 10,000 generations. See what happens.

The problem with Behe's argument is that such an experiment does not test ID, it actually tests Darwinism.

[little jeremiah]

I've had an out of body experience and it was not caused by errant chemicals.

I've read many books about out of body experiences and near death experiences and the only way someone could totally deny their existence is if said person refuses to have an open mind.

Have a nice day!

[little jeremiah]

I've read Storm's account, among others. Quite fascinating.

Soul = actual identity, eternally existing self.

Body = temporary vehicle, compared to tent in the Bible, vehicle in the Vedas.

[indcons]

What are you talking about? Can you be less cryptic?

[Ready2go]

I've read Storm's account, among others. Quite fascinating.

Soul = actual identity, eternally existing self.

Body = temporary vehicle, compared to tent in the Bible, vehicle in the Vedas.

---

Amen & Amen little jeremiah!!!

I think so many of our friends here are turned off by "religion" because they don't really know what the Bible has to say about us and our new bodies.

Now you would think if they can believe that we came into being from a pile of goo...or whatever they "think caused us to be here" including being a monkey's uncle. :)

They wouldn't have a hard time understanding that our bodies are going to change...what they say has happened in the past over millions/billions of years is only going to take a twinkle of the eye to get us where we're going.

Each one of us was created unique and special and death doesn't mean it's the end of us....it's only the beginning of eternity.

2 Cor:1 For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down—when we die and leave these bodies—we will have a home in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands.

2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long for the day when we will put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing.

3 For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies.

4 Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and have no bodies at all. We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life.

5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord.

7 That is why we live by believing and not by seeing.

8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

9 So our aim is to please him always, whether we are here in this body or away from this body.

10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies.

Some about our "new homes":

John 14:2 There are many rooms in my Father’s home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly.

3When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.

4And you know where I am going and how to get there.”

Hebrews 13:14 For this world is not our home; we are looking forward to our city in heaven, which is yet to come.

1 Peter 3:18 Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.

19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—

20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.

21 And this is a picture of baptism, which now saves you by the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection. Baptism is not a removal of dirt from your body; it is an appeal to God from a clean conscience.

22 Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers are bowing before him.