Posted on 09/28/2005 12:14:25 PM PDT by hripka
The list can be condensed.
Helped - American citizens
Hurt - illegals, the "cash" economy, politicians.
Any questions??
Based on what you wrote, if there is a consumption tax, you say that the demand for products produced in the USA will go up because we will export more, because the price (cost of production) will go down. But in the same thought you write that it will cause income to rise. How can both be true? How can we have both lower costs of production and higher incomes based solely on the establishment of a consumption tax? If the tax take is the same, if one compares the income tax to a consumption tax, then, where did the money come from to pay workers more if the cost of goods goes down?
BTW, explain to me how Chinese and Mexican, or Costa Rican companies will move factories to the USA for cheaper labor and lower production costs if the incomes of the workers go up and when the government's total tax burden remains the same?
Yeah.... along those lines.... government spends what it spends. It's going to raise the same amount of tax (actually more as years go by). Under the current tax system there are creative ways to avoid paying tax. In a consumption tax plan there is only way to avoid the tax. And that's to not buy new items.
Unless government is talking about cutting the budget, the average tax burden is going to remain the same. The highs and lows will just be shifted to different parts of the population based on spending habits.
>Hurt: Those who have saved in the past in non-tax deferred accounts. They paid income tax on the money before saved and will have to pay again when spending it.<
This is more than off set by the absence of taxes on IRA and 401K savings which dwarf deposits in Roth Ira's.The 23% sales Tax is balanced by the lack of taxes when money is withdrawn and the ability to withdraw on your on schedule.I am 53 I would love to have access to my 401K money right now with no tax penalty
And you know.... if you study up on it a little.... there are creative ways for you to have access to IRA monies right now without paying the penalty.
Our current tax codes have tons of loop holes. They are there for a reason.
Don't forget that the fair tax hurts the blood-sucking K-Street lobby most of all:
http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html
The cruelest insult will be to those who reach a manditory retirement age on the day we switch from income tax to consumption tax. They will will have paid income taxes on an entire career of savings just in time to turn around and be taxed again as they spend it.
WRT 23, based on what you wrote do you agree that a consuption tax does not provide a greater income and lower prices?
A consumption tax has the same effect as supply and demand pricing.
A consumption tax will really hurt our economy.
I'm not sure anything can provide lower prices and greater income.
Finally, a clear and concise thinker on this topic.
I keep seeing and hearing how those in retirement or near will be "hurt" by this tax change. For one, those are the same people who paid MUCH less for most of their careers in Soc UnSecurity taxes than the current tax rates. Second, they will be getting more and more government handouts like free drugs. Third, they are implying that the tax code should not be changed so others can be penalized instead of them. No wonder the "greatest" generation is being seen more and more as the "Greediest" generation.
"Based on what you wrote, if there is a consumption tax, you say that the demand for products produced in the USA will go up because we will export more, because the price (cost of production) will go down. But in the same thought you write that it will cause income to rise. How can both be true? How can we have both lower costs of production and higher incomes based solely on the establishment of a consumption tax? If the tax take is the same, if one compares the income tax to a consumption tax, then, where did the money come from to pay workers more if the cost of goods goes down?"
First, I do believe that, initially, all consumption will slow down. I also believe that after a few short months it will rebound here and be stronger than ever. Second, demand for American products will increase internationally as American products will now be about 20% cheaper. They are cheaper because they are not taxed in the United States if they are not sold to American consumers. This drives demand. The cost of production goes down as a result of removing embedded taxes. This is even more profound for companies that have moved production to cheap labor markets and spend extraordinary shipping costs to get their product back to America. Right now, the considerably cheaper labor offsets the cost of shipping and nets a company more profit. Now, remove the tax burden and pay more in labor while reducing shipping costs and the company should realize more profit. As more company's move to America, there are more jobs to be had. As workers are in demand, salaries and wages will go up (as they did in the 90's). These are side affects of the implementation of the fair tax, not the sole reason for implementing it. And it is all theory of which I have researched and have some confidence in.
"BTW, explain to me how Chinese and Mexican, or Costa Rican companies will move factories to the USA for cheaper labor and lower production costs if the incomes of the workers go up and when the government's total tax burden remains the same?"
Who do you think Chinese, Mexican, Costa Rican largest export customer is? It may not be as big a deal for the American Continent, but for the Asian and European market, which are much more significant, it would be very appealing. Why do you think Puerto Rico is the world's pharmacuetical manufacturing headquarters? It is not because Puerto Rico is where all the worlds best scientists are. It is because for years the industry has paid $0 in taxes to the US property. Amazingly, their economy is doing well without the taxes from Lilly, Genentech, Biogen, Pfizer, etc.
The attraction is that if you can reduce the shipping costs and tax burdens, than a company can afford the higher labor costs, especially if its biggest market is in the United States.
I agree with this.... It's pretty rough on the federal deficit because we know for certain that they are not going to cut spending :).... but yeah pumping money into the system in that way will have the effect. Myself, I don't worry that much about the deficit. But I know many do...
this just creates an arbitrage when shipping costs are less than the tax rate.
>The cruelest insult will be to those who reach a manditory retirement age on the day we switch from income tax to consumption tax. They will will have paid income taxes on an entire career of savings just in time to turn around and be taxed again as they spend it.<
Not the case.401K income is not taxable the day you retire.It is taxable as you withdraw it over 20 years at the rate of withdrawal perscribed by the Gov.The retired person comes out ahead.No income tax on retirement no consumption tax on basic neccesities(where most of spending goes)
"The cruelest insult will be to those who reach a manditory retirement age on the day we switch from income tax to consumption tax. They will will have paid income taxes on an entire career of savings just in time to turn around and be taxed again as they spend it."
This is very true and sad at the same time. But what did the Baby Boomers ever give up for the this country anyway besides the Vietnam War?
(This is a joke!) -- Meant to be humerous.
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