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To: mike182d
If you can show me where in the Bible Christ removes the priesthood, as an office, I'm all ears.

That is the problem, you are trying to see through the holes in your head that were made for hearing.

If you can show me in Scripture where anyone other than the Levitical priesthood, or the order of Malki-Tzedek are priests, I am ready to read. In the TaNaKh (Old Testament to you) there are two priesthood's dedicated to G-d. Only two. Descendants of Aharon [Aaron], and Malki-Tzedik. Scripture is quite clear that anyone trying to operate as a priest must be in one of these two orders, and when I say 'order' of Malki-Tzedek, it is an order of one, since we have no geneology or descendants for him. So that means all your Catholic priest are Kohen [descendants of Aharon], right? Wrong, they merely participated in the murder of countless kohenim, descendants of Levi.

If you have a "New Testament" page over to the book of Hebrews and you will see that there is no "order of Rome" listed. Only two: descendants of Aharon, and Malki-Tzedek.

Now, go clean our your ears and use them for hearing and heeding. And put salve in your eyes, they are for seeing.
117 posted on 09/28/2005 12:47:09 PM PDT by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: safisoft; mike182d
If you can show me in Scripture where anyone other than the Levitical priesthood, or the order of Malki-Tzedek are priests, I am ready to read.

Gen. 14:18 - this is the first time that the word "priest" is used in Old Testament. Melchizedek is both a priest and a king and he offers a bread and wine sacrifice to God.

Psalm 76:2 - Melchizedek is the king of Salem. Salem is the future Jeru-salem where Jesus, the eternal priest and king, established his new Kingdom and the Eucharistic sacrifice which He offered under the appearance of bread and wine.

Psalm 110:4 - this is the prophecy that Jesus will be the eternal priest and king in the same manner as this mysterious priest Melchizedek. This prophecy requires us to look for an eternal bread and wine sacrifice in the future. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Catholic Church.

Malachi 1:11 - this is a prophecy of a pure offering that will be offered in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting. Thus, there will be only one sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation. If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet.

Exodus 12:14,17,24; cf. 24:8 - we see that the feast of the paschal lamb is a perpetual ordinance. It lasts forever. But it had not yet been fulfilled.

Exodus 29:38-39 – God commands the Israelites to “offer” (poieseis) the lambs upon the altar. The word “offer” is the same verb Jesus would use to institute the Eucharistic offering of Himself.

Lev. 19:22 – the priests of the old covenant would make atonement for sins with the guilt offering of an animal which had to be consumed. Jesus, the High Priest of the New Covenant, has atoned for our sins by His one sacrifice, and He also must be consumed.

Jer. 33:18 - God promises that His earthly kingdom will consist of a sacrificial priesthood forever. This promise has been fulfilled by the priests of the Catholic Church, who sacramentally offer the sacrifice of Christ from the rising of the sun to its setting in every Mass around the world.

Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church.

2 Chron. 26:18 - only validly consecrated priests will be able to offer the sacrifice to God. The Catholic priests of the New Covenant trace their sacrificial priesthood to Christ.

121 posted on 09/28/2005 1:43:34 PM PDT by NYer
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To: safisoft
So that means all your Catholic priest are Kohen [descendants of Aharon], right? Wrong, they merely participated in the murder of countless kohenim, descendants of Levi.

Now Safisoft is literally accusing "all" Catholic priests of participating in the murder of "countless" Jews. I don't know why I bothered to try to educate him on the historical realities of the Inquisition earlier today, since logical argumentation is obviously not what he's here for.

Somebody else can waste bandwidth on Safisoft if they want. I'm content to call him what he is--a Catholic basher, and not even a particularly artful one--and move on.

122 posted on 09/28/2005 2:03:49 PM PDT by d-back
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To: safisoft
Tim Staples explains this better than I could:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp

"But even if a Protestant accepts the notion of Christians being priests and accepts the Catholic interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrew 7:22–25 in this respect, this in no way shows that there is a distinct ordained priesthood apart from the universal priesthood of the faithful. First Peter 2 indicated that all Christians are priests—but not ministerial priests. Here was my biggest problem with the Catholic notion of a ministerial priesthood. The ordained ministers of the New Covenant are called apostles (cf. Eph. 4:11), elders (Jas. 5:14), bishops (1 Tim. 3:1), and deacons (1 Tim. 3:8ff). They are not referred to directly with the typical Greek word for "priest," which is hiereus. But the English word priest is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, or "elder." It does not originate from hiereus. The German word priester also has its origin from the Greek word for "elder." So there is etymological reason to say that the elder in the Christian Church was considered to be a priest. In fact, the Douay-Rheims Bible translates presbuteros as "priest," which can be a valid translation (see Jas. 5:14, DRV). Having said that, I must say that for me, it was not the word elder or priest that helped me to see the truth of the New Covenant priesthood; it was the function of the apostle, bishop, and elder, which is clearly revealed to be of a priestly nature. (A deacon is ordained, but he is not a ministerial priest.) There were basically four biblical steps I took on the road to discovering the New Covenant priesthood. First, I saw that although the standard noun for priest—hiereus—is not used for New Testament ministers, the verb form of hiereus is. And it is found when Paul refers specifically to his ministry as an apostle. He refers to his ministry as a "priestly service": "Because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service [Greek: hierourgounta] of the gospel of God" (Rom. 15:15–16). Second, I saw that 1 Peter 2:5–9 is a reference to Exodus 19:6: "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." This text indicates a universal priesthood in the Old Covenant. Yet in that same chapter, verse 22, we read: "And also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves." I clearly saw that there was a universal priesthood in existence in the Old Covenant, but this did not exclude the possibility of a distinct ministerial priesthood as well. Could it be the same in the New Covenant? I discovered that it was. Third, as far as the term priest is concerned, it began to seem plausible to me that the Christians of the first century would avoid using it in naming the ministerial offices of the Church, because it was the same term being used by the more numerous Jewish and even pagan priests (cf. Luke 1:8–9; Acts 14:13). Christians used language to distinguish their priests from the Jewish and pagan priests of their day. But what was most important for me was the fourth step in the process. I saw in Scripture that New Covenant ministers functioned as priests. As the old saying goes: "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . . ."

Or would you like to argue against the Trinity because the word "trinity" isn't explicitely in the Bible either?
141 posted on 09/28/2005 3:53:13 PM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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