Posted on 09/27/2005 7:37:51 AM PDT by NYer
I think this will come in handy too, thanks.
"You are correct, I was rude. Sorry."
Accepted.
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When people started reading the Bible and questioning the Catholic traditions that didn't seem to match Scripture, these words were given different translations. * latria - worship * dulia - honor * hyperdulia - venerate
And I like this little blurb from Catholic.com "Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. "
I did not misrepresent the catholic faith. Next time it would be best to simple say "Move along, nothing to see here!" because you're not supposed to talk about it.
You are correct that there are different words for "worship", however, as you (apparently unintentionally) demonstrate, they don't all mean the same thing. That's what the sentence from catholic.com is referring to.
More precisely, it wasn't until recently that in OUR language, English, the word "worship" was taken to mean ONLY the highest form, or latria, as you define. That is what catholic.com means when it says, "Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term."
Again, the term "worship" didn't mean, until recently (the 20th century) ONLY latria. It could also mean dulia and hyperdulia. Thus, in attempting to discredit the Catholic "worship" of Mary with your definitions, you actually demonstrate quite effectively how Catholics do NOT "worship" Mary as we understand the word "worship" today.
Thanks!
Mental note to self: I must learn how to do those bullets in text. I'll get myself to the HTML sandbox one of these days for a refresher!
I just noticed that the chapter I was referring to and quoting from in post #79 is Chapter 43. It is mislabeled 42 in the source, so that there are two 42's.
I do not disregard scripture, I disregard a self serving interpretation.
I will admit that there are mysteries in the Bible. However, I can not accept that a basic tennent of faith is stated only once and twice omitted.
Just because someone decided in 220 that the keys were another example of the primacy of the Peter does not mean that the mystery is solved.
The meaning of the keys did not occur because of searching for meaning, but because of searching for validation.
Isaiah 22:21-22 (NASB)(21)I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. (22)I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.
There was no "search for meaning". The meaning was known.
BTW how could there be any mysteries in the bible, I thought the meaning of all scripture was plain as the nose on you face? If not, then surely God would have given us a mechanism for properly understanding scripture wouldn't He? IOW an infallible, authoritative, singular Church.
What part of the meaning of worship do you object to?
I'm not saying that Catholics worship Mary the same as God. I understand it is a heirarchy. God, Mary, then the saints.
Venerate means to treat someone or something with deep respect. I venerate the church building, but that doesn't mean I pray to it.
It seems to me that Catholics more than venerate Mary. Sure, there is deep respect, but there is also something more . Venerate seems insufficient. Worship seems to cover it nicely.
Our Lord believed Mary to be "better than normal people", who are we to argue with the Lord?
As to the mechanisms for properly understanding the scriptures, that is explained in 1 Corinthians 12. God gave gifts to the Body of Christ.
Notice it doesn't mention the RCC or the Pope as a gift to the Church.
Verse 23a is even more interesting. "and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor". So all of your hype that the Pope and the Bishops, and the Priest, and the Saints, and Mary are more important and deserve greater honor is just plain weird.
About your Old Testament reference to the keys, when was that explaination first mentioned. Just another example of looking back to the Bible to prove what you want. There are other keys mentioned in the Bible. If you can show that every mention of a key has the same definition and meaning, I might consider the issue more. But it does not.
Consider this: why did Christ establish a Church before He gave us the full canon of Scripture? Why did He instruct us to "take it to the Church" and not "take it to Scripture"? Scripture, the perfect, infallible word of God was, is and forever will be a teaching tool to be used by the Church to lead us to Christ along the narrow path. Christianity is not a religion of the book, that's Islam. Christ gave us a Church first and promised it perfection so we can know, with out fail or doubt, through the ages what is the broad road and what is the narrow path.
Modern Christendom is awash in churches, but there is only one that teaches the fullness of Christian Faith. One, not many. Once you accept that simple truth, your irrational fear of the Blessed Mother and the other stumbling blocks you have, will fall away. Remember, Mary did as Paul states as a requisite for being Christ like; she emptied herself completely in order to be the handmaiden of the Lord. She is greatest of all created beings precisely because she totally rejected her self for Him. You do the same and maybe you too can be the subject of the dulia of the faithful!
We believe she is an instrumental part of what Jesus did on the Cross. Without Mary's cooperation, Jesus would not have been born! Thus, it's not that she's "better" in the sense that she's a goddess, but she's much more coopertive with God than the "average Joe.
Catholics pray to Mary
Just like you (I assume) ask your friends to pray for you to God, so that is what we do when we "pray to Mary", we are asking for her intecessory prayer to God.
Catholics have created rituals around Mary
You say "Like the Rosary". First of all, the Rosary is merely a way to keep track of how many times the Hail Mary is said. It's a counting tool, like an abacus. The actual prayers in the Rosary are numbered (50 Hail Marys, 5 Our Fathers, etc) according to Tradition, but here your objection isn't with Mary, per se, it's with Catholic Tradition. That's a separate discussion.
You also claim that the Sacrement of Marriage is somehow based on Mary. I don't understand what you mean entirely by your use of the word "weddings", but I can assure you, the Sacrament of Marriage has nothing to do with Mary. I don't know where you get that.
Catholics have created tenents of faith involving Mary [like Ever Virgin, Immaculate Conception]
The reason I put an emphasis on your use of the word "created" there is because this is a common misconception among those who don't understand where Catholic doctrine comes from. Let's take the Immaculate Conception, for example. That wasn't simply "created" in 1854, rather it was formally declared part of our belief, however, that doesn't mean it was "created" then. It was merely a reflection of tradition that was passed down through the centuries. In other words, for centuries before 1854, many Catholics in the Church believed in the Immaculate Conception.
Basically put, to say the Church "creates" a doctrine at a certain date merely because that is when a particular Pope spoke ex cathedra on the matter is simply a misunderstanding. And indeed, you have to remember that Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides our Church and that the gates of Hell will never prevail against her. So, when a matter is spoken about ex cathedra, it's not the Pope, the man, talking, it's by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that a matter is being decided, once and for all.
If you object to this line of reasoning, then you must burn your Bible now, as the Cannon of books in it was decided by the exact same method.
Catholics have huge statues of Mary in church
First of all, I like how you editorialized it by saying "huge". I wonder what you would not consider a "huge statue"? What's the height requirement to make something "huge"?
Beyond that though, this is perhaps the most trivial objection of all, in that I would hardly object to YOU keeping a picture, or a video tape, or some other visual record of your loved ones in your house. I'd hardly consider it idolotry or blasphemy to keep such pictures once they are dead. It's the same with the statues of Mary, Joseph, etc.
If you still object to any kind of statue or icon being present in a church building, thinking that any such representation MUST be idolotry, then I guess you must object to God Himself when he instructed the Jews HOW to build the Ark of the Covenant, and was very specific about it, right AFTER He gave them the Ten Commandments. If ALL iconography/statues/concrete representations are idolotry, then I guess the cherebum on the Ark were idols too, right?
It seems to me that Catholics more than venerate Mary. Sure, there is deep respect, but there is also something more . Venerate seems insufficient. Worship seems to cover it nicely.
That's because you don't understand how we worship God. The only mention of Mary in the Mass is during the Creed (Nicene). All other focus is on HIM, no one else (except, I suppose, when we devote some prayer time to worldly causes, but we're instructed as Christians to pray for one another right?)
As far as what you perceive as "worship" of Mary, it's not at all, as I think I've explained above. But if you remember anything from this reply, remember this: When we venerate Mary, we're not putting her on her own little pedastal, SEPARATE from God, we're acknowledging her own special place in God's Kingdom, in other words, we're worshipping God THROUGH Mary.
The last word will have to be yours on this subject, if you even want to reply. I've got to run. God Bless, I hope this was helpful!
Disappointing? What a condescending word to choose. Did you expect better of me? How superior of you. I could understand if you were saddened, because I'm going to hell because I think that Mary was godly woman who performed her wifely duties towards Joseph. But disappointed? Come on.
Christ established the Church. He left it to His apostles to establish the churches. To proclaim one physical church to have dominion over all other churches is disappointingly human in the search for power over other men.
Our understanding of what the Church represents is very different. I understand the Church to be the Body of Christ, all true believers. Reading the Nicene creed, it speaks of the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. This is the Body of Christ; all true believers. When Christ returns to bring home His Church, it will be the individual members, not the RCC. I'm pretty sure that the Throne of Peter will stay where it is.
Your confusing physical churches with the one Church. the location of the Church is not the issue, it's the doctrine of the Church that is important. The apostles established many churches that preached the One True Faith of the One True Church. The RCC is not a location or a building or a man: it is the deposit of the fullness of God's revelation to man. If tomorrow Vatican city burned to the ground, the Church would continue, it is not particular to a location or even the pope, but it is particular to one Church, which teaches one faith.
Now, you keep mentioning the true believers, can you define what a "true believer" believes in? Also, what exactly does it mean to believe?
Asking a live friend to pray for me is very different than asking a dead person. There is a promise that Jesus will hear our prayers. There is no such promise that anyone dead can hear us, pray for us, or respond.
In the Catholic weddings that I've attended, they have placed flowers at the foot of the Mary Statue. I consider this a ritual.
The development of Marian theology is very tracable. This pope added this and another pope added that. As a member of an apostolic church, I do not believe that any apostle taught anything special about Mary, except she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. I have 2 reasons for this belief. First, the scripture. Second the creeds.
In the early churches, there were fragmented beleifs. They called the Nicene council to formalize the core of christian belief. The nicene creed is a statement of faith. If you believe the words of the nicene creed, you can call yourself christian. The only tenet regarding Mary in the basic christian faith is that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.
None of the future creeds ever expand into more detail about Mary.
Then around 1200 (I think) some Pope comes along and declares that belief in Mary as ever virgin is a condition of salvation.
Are you really trying to tell me that christians always believed this, just never wrote it down?
Burn my Bible because the Catholic Church claims ownership over God's Word? Not likely.
Huge statues was an editorial comment. I have this mental vision of always looking up at the statue of Mary. Are they life sized, smaller or larger?
True believer is easy to define. That's why the creeds were created. A simple statment of faith.
Fine, but what of those, and there are many, who claim to be true believers but disavow any creed as a man made device? Have they by that act excommunicated them selves from the body of believers? Is it enough to simply recite the creed? Or is some action required?
If someone denies the authority of the creeds as man made inventions, that's fine with me. They are man made. I believe they are consistent with Scripture, not equal. However, if someone denies any specific part of the creeds, then I might personally have a problem calling them christian.
Reciting the creed does not bring salvation.
Salvation is by grace, through faith, for works.
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