How the (Catholic) Church Built Western Civilization

Zenit News Agency ^ | September 26, 2005

[annalex]

I agree that Clement's letter should not be in the canon (the criteria for canonicity are very strict), and I agree that it demostrates the apostolicity of the Papacy. I don't see any circular logic though.

[SJackson]

I've heard the "inquisition wasn't so bad" line a number of times. "Dishonest" converts (Protestant too, not all Jewish), they got what they deserved. Who can blame the Spanish for that?

[faireturn]

The author makes a dubious claim about a "Machiavellian view"

"-- as the Late Scholastics saw it, [there] was [an] idea that no one, not even the state, was exempt from moral constraints.
This idea ran completely contrary to the Machiavellian view that the state was morally autonomous and bound by no absolute moral standards. -- "

True, no one, not even the state, is exempt from constraints.

But to the contrary, - Machiavelli rejects the whole idea that the morality that does and should hold between individual human beings automatically extends to 'moral' relations between government & citizens. 

This means that Machiavelli rejects the natural law tradition, according to which the basic principles of human morality, both private and public, as incorporated in political constitutions, are natural and built into the structure of the universe, rather than products of human history. 

Machiavelli's own stance is one of pragmatism. -- To him whether a policy is political correct or not depends entirely on the consequences, the practical upshot, and not on an application of high moral principles, decreed by men who deem themselves superior.

For Machiavelli, justice (for example) does not exist either in nature or by God's commandment.
  Rather, justice is whatever the common man, in juries of your peers, decides it to be.  

[ItsOurTimeNow]

Reformed Ping!

Of interest - there's some very lively discussion here.

[safisoft]

your ignorance of the Inquisition is astounding.

Don't lecture me. I am not at all ignorant on this. I was responding to the unflinchingly unrepentant attitude in which the Inquisition was being 'explained' away. I shudder to think of such 'explanations' offered to the Righteous Judge.

Sometimes they lost their property

Right. Dream on buddy. Your's is a sick and twisted history, and a sick and twisted religion if that is where it takes you.

Reading your account of history and your excuses for the abuses of the Catholic church remind an awful lot of Muslim revisionism, and Muslim excuses for much the same dispicable actions.

This thread has convinced me that Catholicism before the Reformation was simply a few dozen years more advanced that Islam.

[Tao Yin]

The circular logic of the Catholic Church is based on the assertion: "The Catholic Church is always right." It is often covered in several layers of abstraction, but it is always there none the less.

1 Clement starts the whole process and that's the real corner stone of the Papacy.

Catholics will claim it is the keys, but that's further down the circular logic track. First claim primacy, second claim the right to interpret the Bible, then claim primacy through interpretation.

Which came first, 1 Clement or the keys?

It reminds me of the Supreme Court. Some judges look to the Constitution for truth and principle. Other judges look to the Constitution to prove their own belief.

The keys given to Peter are an example of looking to the Bible to prove an existing belief.

[NYer]

The keys given to Peter are an example of looking to the Bible to prove an existing belief.

Before Christ gave the "keys" to Peter, another momentous event took place.

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church.

And there is the Scriptural foundation.

[safisoft]

If you study the history of Christianity, you will not find "sola sciptura," "sola fides," rejection of the sacraments, rejection of the priesthood/celibacy, rejection of intercessory prayer, etc., prior to Martin Luther.

Wow. Your history gets wilder and wilder. You need to get out more. You think Luther invented the ideas of Reformation? Truth be told, the excesses of the Papacy from 1200 to 1500 had a greater effect.

Put aside whether Luther was right or wrong (I am not a Luther fan myself), your history must be coming from the same source that says burning at the stake only hurts mildly. Sheesh. There is a LONG list of people exterminated by the Roman Church for very much the same things that the Reformation pressed.

Peter Waldo predated Luther by almost 400 years. He taught many of the same things that Luther/Calvin/Zwingli did 400 years later - and it brought the Waldensians the same harsh and murderous treatment as the Jews would receive in Spain 300 years later. Tell me, what excuses does your "All Saints' Excuses, A Catholic History" book say for the treatment of the Waldensians? There are many more, and many more earlier, but you are welcome to your revisionism.

[hosepipe]

[ Long ago debunked urban legend. ]

Havn't read "Foxes Book of Martyrs", have you.?.
Its Googleable.. John Fox wrote it for just a time like now.. meaning this thread..

[Matchett-PI]

"Who can disagree that Protestant America and it's Constitution have given the world it's greatest and inspired discoveries."

As I set my profile page up to illustrate.

[HiTech RedNeck]

My advice to everyone contemplating conversion to Catholicism, do not do it for extraneous reasons, even under great duress as it won't help your soul.

If you'd get off your high horse long enough to see, anybody who would believe you are a reliable source for that would be a RC anyhow.

[safisoft]

I've heard the "inquisition wasn't so bad" line a number of times.

It is like reading an article in the Saudi opinion pages. Maybe the shills for the violence of the Catholic church is who the mullahs learned it from.

only mild torture... only their property was taken...

I have a better understanding of what drove the Puritans to leave Europe.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Naw, the Mullahs came by it independently... the work of the devil is partial to no religion.

I look at this fetish of Catholics for human inflicted pain and torture, somewhat moderated in modern time but still present, then look at the bible and say sheeeeeesh, who piled this doctrine on top?

[HiTech RedNeck]

I shudder to think of such 'explanations' offered to the Righteous Judge.

Even if the person is saved, it would have to be something like "My child, what a colossal, cruel mistake!"

[Scotswife]

Actually - yes you do misrepresent the faith, but that is not surprising.

People didn't just happen to "start" reading the bible centuries after the canon was established. What they did is they started to stray from the interpretation held by the Church since the beginning.

But yes...moving along is a good idea as I have grown weary of the same old conversation...

protestant: "you catholics worship Mary and the saints"
catholic: "umm...no we don't"
protestant: "yes - you catholics worship Mary and the saints"
catholic: "no - we catholics do not worhip Mary and the saints"

and so and so forth.
Very boring.

Since you've heard of catholic.com and seem intent on arguing, why don't you take it up with these folks here?

http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

I for one think my time is better spent reading scripture.
God Bless you.

[SJackson]

Peter Waldo predated Luther by almost 400 years. He taught many of the same things that Luther/Calvin/Zwingli did 400 years later - and it brought the Waldensians the same harsh and murderous treatment as the Jews would receive in Spain 300 years later....

and gave rise to the establishment of the Inquisition in the early 13th century

[safisoft]

If you can show me where in the Bible Christ removes the priesthood, as an office, I'm all ears.

That is the problem, you are trying to see through the holes in your head that were made for hearing.

If you can show me in Scripture where anyone other than the Levitical priesthood, or the order of Malki-Tzedek are priests, I am ready to read. In the TaNaKh (Old Testament to you) there are two priesthood's dedicated to G-d. Only two. Descendants of Aharon [Aaron], and Malki-Tzedik. Scripture is quite clear that anyone trying to operate as a priest must be in one of these two orders, and when I say 'order' of Malki-Tzedek, it is an order of one, since we have no geneology or descendants for him. So that means all your Catholic priest are Kohen [descendants of Aharon], right? Wrong, they merely participated in the murder of countless kohenim, descendants of Levi.

If you have a "New Testament" page over to the book of Hebrews and you will see that there is no "order of Rome" listed. Only two: descendants of Aharon, and Malki-Tzedek.

Now, go clean our your ears and use them for hearing and heeding. And put salve in your eyes, they are for seeing.

[Alas Babylon!]

You're wrong. I'm a catholic. I do not worship Mary nor any saint. I worship God, His Son Jesus, and His Holy Spirit. That is all. You bear false witness.

[annalex]

looking to the Bible to prove an existing belief

The Catholic church is apostolic. The Bible is not the source of its truths; Christ is, Who is the incarnate Word, and the Church propagates the Word. It is always right because Christ is her bridegroom, not because of a particular verse or a particular encyclical.

Nevertheless, the Scripture, as NYer pointed out, shows ascendancy of Peter at several junctures: the profession of Peter followed by the granting of the new name, promise of Christ's Church built, symbolically, on Peter the Rock, handing of the keys, another profession of Peter's love for Christ, and the charge to feed and guide the sheep. The primacy of the Chair of Peter, nor its location in Rome, was never challenged in the Early Church, as the letter of Pope Clement (among other patristic documents) illustrates. So, the primacy of the Papacy is both scriptural and apostolic.

[annalex]

anybody who would believe you are a reliable source for that would be a RC anyhow

Not true. The advice to convert only when her heart is ready to convert is the advice I always give my wife, and she is Protestant.