HEADING HOME TO CHAOS - Germany Begins Repatriating Afghan Refugees

Der Spiegel ^ | September 26, 2005 | Daniela Gerson and Chris Bryant

[Atlantic Bridge]

Afghanistan is still far from a hospitable, but that hasn't stopped German authorities from beginning the process of sending Afghan refugees back home. The first have already been deported, and tens of thousands are now fearing for their future. It was the letter he had been dreading for months. Just over a week ago, the German government wrote Wahid Solleimanie, 24, telling him he was no longer welcome. On September 25, the letter said, the Afghan refugee would be forced to leave the country he has called home for the last six years. Since then, Solleimanie has been afraid to sleep in his own room in the northern port city of Hamburg; he is terrified the authorities will surprise him in the middle of the night..... Snip

...... Nagel, for his part, makes no apologies for the deportations. He insists that Germany has fulfilled its duty to Afghan refugees and is proud of his nation's asylum policy. The bottom line, he insists, is that Afghanistan is now safe, says Nagel. He even paid a short visit to the country before the ban on repatriation was lifted in May this year. "When a crisis has passed, and emergency assistance is no longer required, then refugees should return, because their country needs them to help the reconstruction," he says. Nagel also notes that the twice weekly flight to Kabul from Frankfurt was booked solid with holidaymakers throughout August. His point is clear: Afghans who have been granted permanent residency in Germany are happy to return to their homeland. The others are just trying to exchange their refugee status for immigrant status. Then, puffing on his trademark pipe, he repeats a line cited often by German conservatives: "Germany is not a country of immigration."

[Atlantic Bridge]

"Germany is not a country of immigration."

This is definitly wrong, since the declining German birth-rate forces the country to find educated and skilled immigrants. The amnesia of the German conservative movement, represented by the CDU, about this problem is pathological. On the "right" side only the German FDP is open to face this problem. It will be difficult to seperate the "good" immigrants from the "bad" immigrants.

[Proud_USA_Republican]

find educated and skilled immigrants.

I've worked in Germany. The majority of immigrants arriving there are neither educated or skilled.
Most are from places like Turkey and North Africa.

The declining german birth rate can be directly attributed to their socialist utopia model of endless welfare, high taxes, lazy, selfish children full of entitlement syndrome, government agenda of regulating everything, and never ending unemployment and pension benefits.

This all started in the later 60's when the socialists of Schroeders generation started taking over.

[Atlantic Bridge]

The declining german birth rate can be directly attributed to their socialist utopia model of endless welfare, high taxes, lazy, selfish children full of entitlement syndrome, government agenda of regulating everything, and never ending unemployment and pension benefits.

This is a definitly wrong and dumb argumentation. The true reason for the declining German birth rate was simply the emancipation of the German women. There are not enough possibilities to combine work with children. It is interesting that France, which has equal much or more welfare than Germany, has a birth rate of ca. 2 kids/women, while the German rate is about 1,34 kids/women. They have simply enough childcare.

Since I am no racist, I do not have a problem with immigrants from Turkey or North Africa, as long they adapt our values and our European way of living. There is the problem. We need new people and I am sure that there will be a lot of immigration within the next 20 years from eastern Europe and other places. If some of those Afghans are interesting for us, we should keep them. Those who are not interesting should go home.

[ukman]

Nonsense!

[TLI]

This all started in the later 60's starts anytime when the socialists of Schroeders any generation started taking over. gain control.

Universal adaptation of your statement.

[RKV]

"The true reason for the declining German birth rate was simply the emancipation of the German women." I wouldn't say so. I know in my own case (and I have two children) we took a good long look at what we could afford before we settled on how big our family was going to be. Low economic growth, high unemployment and high taxes don't make for a good environment to raise children. Economics was NOT the whole story, but it does matter. Also, let's not forget the external threat which hung over Germany for a generation after WW2, either.

[Proud_USA_Republican]

This reminds me of the same thing I'm seeing in cities like San Francisco and Seattle where child-birthrates are near the bottom of the US. No babies please, we're German Sun May 15, 5:25 PM ET Germans have stopped having children -- and the number of couples opting for a childless life is rising every year to the consternation of politicians and employers in the eurozone's biggest economy. While figures released by the French government this month showed France's population could balloon from its current level of 60.2 million to 75 million by 2050, the United Nations predicts that Germany's is set to plummet from 82 million to 70.8 million in the same period. (I wonder how many of those muslim families who average 5 children a family make up this statistic. "I am nearly 35 years old, I am married and I haven't got any children," said Donna, participating in a recent discussion on the Internet site of women's magazine Brigitte. "There is no particular reason apart from the fact that I have never imagined myself having any." A study by Germany's federal institute for demographic research showed that 26 percent of men and 15 percent of women aged between 20 and 39 do not want to start a family, a sharp rise since 1992 when the figures were 12 percent of men and 10 percent of women. "There is an increasing belief that not having children is the ideal way of life," the authors of the study concluded. This growing trend has many people in Germany wringing their hands. With a rapidly ageing population, Germany is now distancing itself from its European neighbours in other ways too. German women, for example, want an average of 1.7 children compared with at least two in most other European countries. Forty percent of university-educated women of child-bearing age are without a child. "Abandoning the idea of children is abandoning the idea of life," Otto Schily, the radical lawyer turned German interior minister, said recently. He should know: he has two daughters. For many women however having children means abandoning their careers. Working mothers complain that all too often they are seen as "Rabenmutter", which translates as "cruel mothers" -- women who dump their kids in childcare so they can pursue their personal goals. Yet in a country where schools generally finish for the day at 1:30 pm, balancing work and children is a headache. "Places in creches are hard to get, and expensive," said Andrea, 35, in the Brigitte chat room. "I just can't imagine myself having a child, staying at home and becoming financially dependent on my partner or the State." The German government has pledged to create 230,000 daycare places by 2010 and the idea of extending the school day is under discussion in some regions. Germans also tend to be students longer than in other countries, with many still enrolled at university and college until they are at least 30. This lengthy study period is "a reliable method of contraception," said the minister responsible for families, Renate Schmidt. The trend towards childlessness is recent -- until the start of the 1990s almost 60 percent of women aged between 25 and 29 had a baby. The figure has plunged to 29 percent today. Many recent studies have pinpointed psychological factors as putting the brake on the desire to start a family. "In Germany, having children isn't sexy," said Marie-Luise Lewicki, the editor of Eltern (Parents) magazine. "We don't just need creches and day-long schooling, we need a change in society," she said. The federal institute for demographic research said the main reason cited for not having children was the lack of either a partner or a stable relationship, which accounted for 83 percent of respondents. However, nearly 60 percent said concerns for the future of their potential children had dissuaded them. In a different study, released by the Forsa polling institute in January, only 29 percent of women pointed to the financial burden of a child and only 39 percent named not wanting to give up their career as their reason for not having children. Having a family "seems to have become an abstract idea", the federal institute concluded. A study found that while 80 percent of parents found understanding and support in their private lives, publicly the opposite is the case. Half of those surveyed said children were considered bothersome in stores or restaurants. For 42 percent of mothers, children are simply thought of as "career killers." Academics in particular feel children put them at a disadvantage in their profession. The number of births in Germany has been cut in half over the past 40 years. In 1964, close to 1.4 million children were born in East and West Germany. Four decades later, this figure has sunk to 706,000.

[Atlantic Bridge]

The true reason for the declining German birth rate was simply the emancipation of the German women." I wouldn't say so. I know in my own case (and I have two children) we took a good long look at what we could afford before we settled on how big our family was going to be. Low economic growth, high unemployment and high taxes don't make for a good environment to raise children.

Most working Germans earn really more than enough to feed a big, big family. Since parents get money from the state, such as "Kindergeld" and "Erziehungsgeld" and are in a better tax situation (i.e. through "Kinderfreibeträge" or "Ehegattensplitting") than people without children, it doesn't mean hunger and pain if you have kids in my country. School is free and until now you had not to pay for univercities (this is changing now).

The real reason for the declining birth rate is the hedonistic lifestyle of young German women and men. They want fun, but they do not want a traditional family anymore. Espechially women with univercity degrees are not willing to have children. Only 40% of the female German graduates have children.

[RKV]

"working Germans earn really more than enough to feed a big, big family" The flaw in your reasoning is that they might 1) not be working (unemployment is what 10%?) or 2) they might (like rational people) want more than just to feed their children. I really don't call it hedonism to want reasonable sized families. Seems to me that the incentives are off a bit, but not necessarily that we need to return to families with 10 children (which were in fact common 100 years ago). With respect to "Kindergeld" and "Erziehungsgeld" could it be that the values are just set too low to provide enough effect?

[lowbuck]

Spegiel Online recently had a picture of a hospital nursery with the caption "Have one of these, or have a career, but not both".

A big problem is the lack of daycare (as you point out) and the short school hours that makes it difficult or impossible for both the husband or wife to work full time.

We are very lucky to have "won" a seat in an exceptional Staedt Kinderkrippe. But even with that said, my day starts between 5 and 5:30 so I can dress/feed and play with our boy before going to the crib for 7. Then I rush to work and rush back in the late afternoon to collect him and spend the rest of the day on dad duties. Without this option I, or my wife, would have had to quit our job or else we could have decided not to have our son.

France on the other hand provides a lot more childcare support. I hope that Germany will follow suit as this will make it easier for others to decide to have a family.

[Owl558]

"Low economic growth, high unemployment and high taxes don't make for a good environment to raise children."

My relatives in Italy cite this as the reason for not having kids. The sad part is that they want to, but do not want to make the sacrifices necessary.

[Atlantic Bridge]

"working Germans earn really more than enough to feed a big, big family" The flaw in your reasoning is that they might 1) not be working (unemployment is what 10%?) or 2) they might (like rational people) want more than just to feed their children. I really don't call it hedonism to want reasonable sized families

Yep! This is correct of course. You are right when you say, that it is reasonalbe to have sized families. I am the father of three sons and we also planned our family of course. The thing is, that most Germans have absolutely no financial problems. It is rather inconvienient to have more than one child and there is really not enough childcare available. The reason for this lack is ideological. The CDU, who was gouverning most of the federal states in Germany through the 80ties and 90ties never saw mothers working. They were clued to their overcome role of women out of the 50ties. Now they changed all their programs, but it seem to be too late to change the destrctive development.

[Atlantic Bridge]

We are very lucky to have "won" a seat in an exceptional Staedt Kinderkrippe.

You are really lucky. On the countryside in southern Germany, where I live, Kinderkrippenplaetze are only available to mothers without husbands. We have to cope with a 3 hour Kindergarten in the morning... Thank god school is a littlebit longer. My wife would like to work, but she is not able to do it, since our sons are 4, 6 and 8 years old.

[lowbuck]

Getting the seat in the krippe was probably harder than winning the lottery, hence my use of the word "won".

Here is Muenchen I think there are about 12 seats per each 100 children against the country average which I think is close to 2 per 100.

BR (Television network for you Freepers not in Germany) did a show comparing working women in Germany and France and the differences between the support were very telling. I think the title said it all. . . "Kinder - nein danke!"

BTW, it sounds like you have a house full of wonderful boys to keep you busy and enrich your life. Ours is only 13 months, but, here again, I feel like I won the big lottery.

[RKV]

One person's definition of sacrifice is different from another's. It would be interesting to know how your relations define sacrifices in this context. Do you know what the would have to "give up?"

[Owl558]

They live a lifestyle that includes going out a couple times a week, having that extra car, that apartment in the stylish neighborhood, the cell phone with all the bells and whistles. That sort of thing. Plus there are the normal sacrifices associated with kids that all parents make. I'm sure you know what I am talking about since I think I saw that you have children. More than anything, my cousin cites high taxes as the biggest obstacle to buying houses and raising a family. I don't live there so I can only repeat what he has told me.

I don't value judge their choices in life. People who don't want kids shouldn't have them. I see this kind of thing here in the San Francisco area where the cost of living is so high and young people want to live a certain lifestyle. In my case, my wife and I lived poor for many years in order to buy the house and have the kids because that's what was important to us. For us, putting off the gratification and "status symbols" has paid off a hundred-fold and I get to look forward to lots of grandchildren on top of it all.

[RKV]

More power to you. I kind of thought that what you are describing would be the case. With respect to the "normal sacrifices" that parents make I consider those to be time and money well spent. My kids are GREAT! Best thing my wife and I ever did. ;>)

[Owl558]

"...I consider those to be time and money well spent."

Yup. I'm a little too old now, but I wish I could have 10 more. The wife would probably have a thing or two to say about that though!

[Atlantic Bridge]

BTW, it sounds like you have a house full of wonderful boys to keep you busy and enrich your life. Ours is only 13 months, but, here again, I feel like I won the big lottery.

Oh yes! My boys are also the best thing that ever happened to me! Have fun!

:-)