Indian, US aircraft carriers go head-to-head in war games

Rediff ^ | September 23, 2005 21:04 IST | Editorial

[Jilka]

The North Arabian Sea would become the stage of a formidable build-up of naval armada, including 100,000-tonne displacement United States carrier Nimitz, as Indian and American flotilla cross swords in a nine-day joint manoeuvre from September 25.

The eighth series of exercises, billed the most advanced so far, would not only see the pride of the US seventh fleet,  Nimitz, in action, but also bring the carrier-based E2C Hawkeye Air Early Warning aircraft, the Los Angeles class submarines and the F-18/A hornet to Indian shores.

Against such formidable forces, the Indian Navy would pit its lone carrier, INS Viraat, carrier-based Sea Harriers, indigenously-built Delhi Class destroyer INS Mysore, Godavari class missile frigate and Shishukumar class submarines.

"The two flotilla would engage in simulated air strikes, air defence, shepherding battle ships as well as surface-to- air and sub-sea tactical operations," Rear Admiral DK Joshi, the assistant chief of Naval Staff said. "The thrust of the Malabar-05 exercise this year would also be on counter-terrorism operations at sea, anti-sea piracy and to streamline interoperability."

• US offers 8 navy planes to India

Joshi said during the exercises, in which Indian Navy's ageing vertical take-off Sea Harriers jets would take on the far superior F-18 hornets, India would also field its Russian acquired TU-142m long-range maritime patrol aircraft as well as Seaking helicopters in both their roles - as anti-submarines and ferrying special marine forces.

The Rear Admiral said during exercises, there would not be any 'cross-landings' or 'cross personnel exchanges', as had been witnessed during Indo-US fighter-to-fighter exercises recently. "The two navies have evolved standard operating procedures, which are regularly tested and updated during these bilateral exercises", Joshi said.

He said these exercises would be followed up by joint Indo-US Naval Special Forces exercises in Guam in the Pacific in January 2006. During the exercises, the P3C Orions, US Navy's long- range maritime reconiassance aircraft would be operating from the Indian Navy's sole land base at Dabolim in Goa.

The US recently offered to the Indian Navy, four Orions from early next year as a prelude to a major government-to- government sale.

• 'We have a long way to go'

[Jilka]

Exciting! Can't wait for the the outcome of this one.

[Perdogg]

I am proud that Desi-American relations have become close like this. They recognize the dangers presented by the Islamofascists and by the PRC.

[Patti_ORiley]

A little tit for tat with the Chinese and Russians who just concluded their joint exercises

[Alien Gunfighter]

Ehhh, these exercises are usually crap. You go to sea for two weeks, sneak up on and simulate destroying the hell out of the carrier, only to have the umpire (stationed on the carrier, of course) tell you that all of your attacks missed (presumably blocked by the two-star force field embarked onboard).

Then everyone declares themselves the winner and heads to the nearest liberty port.

[magslinger]

You go to sea for two weeks, sneak up on and simulate destroying the hell out of the carrier, only to have the umpire (stationed on the carrier, of course) tell you that all of your attacks missed (presumably blocked by the two-star force field embarked onboard).

Unless the flight deck gets accidently FODed by chaff.

[43north]

How much you want to bet we "lose" the games and the admirals go whining to Congress for more and better weapons systems?

Heck, if the Indians beat us, outsource our defense to them...

(Just kidding, just kidding.)

[SevenMinusOne]

Unless the deck is stacked against our pilots (as was the last set of games) this won't even be close -

[Wiz]

If F/A-18s would ever be bought by India, would these be able to fly off from the India's aircraft carrier which is likely a ski jump platform?

[danmar]

Exciting! Can't wait for the the outcome of this one.

I for sure hope we do not get our clocks cleaned by the Indians again, like they did with last time with our Air Force fighters.

[SJSAMPLE]

The F-15Cs in that engagement were outnumbered 7 to 1 and had all AWACS support removed. It was a ploy to push for additional purchases of the F-22. F/A-18s would fare much worse under the same circumstances.

[Oztrich Boy]

If F/A-18s would ever be bought by India, would these be able to fly off from the India's aircraft carrier which is likely a ski jump platform?

Yes, but they wouldn't be able to land because INS Viraat doesnt have arrestor wires.

The ex-Russian Gorshkov (due 2007-8 will have attestor wires, but the MiG=29K has already been ordered for the air wing.

The Indian built Air Defence Ship (due 2012 to replace Viraat) wiil either carry Mig-29s (second batch is on option) or a navalized version of the India designed LCA

One problem with the F/A-18 is that being designed for the big US carriers it doesn';r fold that much and has almost twice the deck or hanger footprint of either the MiG-29 or the LCA - so is unlikely to ever be bought by India.

[Wiz]

I've heard before that US offered to sell F/A-18s and I thought if that would link to the air craft carrier of India but after knowing the problems, it sounds that it is not likely India to consider F/A-18 for it, which would be spoiling the capabilities of F/A-18s.

[SevenMinusOne]

I for sure hope we do not get our clocks cleaned by the Indians again, like they did with last time with our Air Force fighters.

Completely untrue - We had our hands tied completely during the games Vs India - We WEREN'T allowed to use our AIM-120's AAM, we weren't allowed to use AWACS and we weren't allowed to use our new AESA radar Sys -

[SevenMinusOne]

The F-15Cs in that engagement were outnumbered 7 to 1 and had all AWACS support removed. It was a ploy to push for additional purchases of the F-22. F/A-18s would fare much worse under the same circumstances.

Exactly right (and we weren't allowed to use AIM-120's or the ASEA Radar sys) -

However, we do need the F-22 (without a doubt) - Along with needing a true replacement for the USN F-14 - The F-18 E/F is a terrific plane (and needed) but it is not the true replacement for the F-14 -

[guitfiddlist]

Exciting! Can't wait for the the outcome of this one.

Well, let me take some of the suspense out and forecast a Navy press release:

Navy spokesman John C. Shill was blunt about the results of the latest US-India flyoff. "No doubt about it. We got whipped. Our pilots had their hands full..one hand holding their Supergulp soda cups, the other on the stick. 'Course, the F-35C has a supersize cup holder that would have given them a fighting chance...but we'll just have to see if we're gonna get enough of those..."

[SJSAMPLE]

Agreed. The F-22 pushes our advantage to a higher level than ever before. But is a "navalized" version of the F-22 feasible? The F-35 for the Navy will have a larger wing loading and the usual undercarriage treatment, so I'm confident that it can replace the F/A-18s historical role, but not as a Fleet Defender. However, the VSTOL concept has been proven as faulty as the AV-8B Harier II.

[SevenMinusOne]

The F-35 is not needed (as the F-18F version can fulfill its duties for some time to come) - And as you correctly pointed out the F-35 in no way can handle the Fleet Defender / Interceptor role -

Possibly an updated YF-23 version or even more unlikely /unrealistic a Tomcat-21 version as a true fleet defender aircraft -

[danmar]

Completely untrue - We had our hands tied completely during the games Vs India - We WEREN'T allowed to use our AIM-120's AAM, we weren't allowed to use AWACS and we weren't allowed to use our new AESA radar Sys -

Question remains...was the Indian Air Force employing the restricted hardware? If "yes", that would be an unfair tactic. If "no" we have a problem.(big problem, I might add).

[SevenMinusOne]

No the India Air Force was not restricted - Only us (American forces) -

Additionally, the one area where we do have a current problem is with no true replacement for the F-14 - The F-18E/F is a great plane (and needed for what it brings to the fight) but it is not a true replacement for the F-14 in the fleet defense / interceptor role -

[GarySpFc]

I realize this is being said by our generals to prove we need the F-22, but it still speaks.

RIA Novosti
June 30, 2004
RUSSIAN FIGHTERS SUPERIOR, SAYS PENTAGON
MOSCOW, RIA Novosti's military analyst Viktor Litovkin

The American military amazed Moscow and the Russian media by saying that Russian-made fighter planes were superior to their American equivalents. How can these flattering revelations be explained?

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

USA Today reported: We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought we were, said Gen. Hal Hornburg, the chief of the Air Combat Command, which oversees U.S. fighter and bomber wings...The F-15Cs are the Air Force's primary air superiority aircraft...[and] the results of the exercise [were] wake up call.

The Inside the Air Force official newsletter also discussed the "Russian victory," and reported even more details. F-15 C/D Eagle fighters were pitted against not only Su-30 MKI fighters but also MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and even the older MiG-21 Bisons, which also performed well. The fighters not only defeated the F-15s but the French-made Mirage-2000 as well. According to the Washington ProFile Web site, the results of the exercises surprised the American pilots.

Meanwhile, Russian military experts and aircraft designers did not seem surprised by these victories. The Sukhoi general designer, Mikhail Simonov, has repeatedly told RIA Novosti and other news agencies the Su-27 Flanker and the Su-30 MKI, a modified version of the Flanker, which are now in service in the Indian Air Force, were developed in the 1980s in response to the F-15 Eagle. Moreover, Soviet designers had stipulated far superior specifications. Consequently, Russian experts were not particularly surprised that the performance of the fighters matched their specifications.

Why did an American general publicly admit this fact four months after the exercises?

India's Su-30 MKI fighters and F-15 C/D Eagles from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, engaged in mock combat exercises in February 2004. However, no one mentioned that India won three of the four exercises at the time.

Russian fighters first defeated their US rivals when Sukhoi and MiG fighters had just started being shown at international aerospace shows in the early 1990s. At that time, several Su-27 fighters, under the command of Maj.-Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, the head of the Lipetsk center for retraining air force pilots, went to Canada to demonstrate their impressive potential. (President Vladimir Putin flew in a Su-27 to Chechnya.)

Instead of missiles and artillery shells, Russian and American fighter planes used aerial cameras to record their mock air-to-air battles. American fighters were disappointed to learn the results of exercise - their cameras had not captured any Su-27s. The Russians, however, had filmed their rivals' vulnerable points from just about every angle.

Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio. The fighter's unsurpassed performance has already become well known throughout the world because no other fighter (except MiG fighters) can execute such impressive stunts as Pugachev's Cobra and others.

The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

Apart from in Canada, MiG-29 fighters also fought mock air battles with South Africa's Mirage-2000s. Again, the Russia planes defeated their enemies.

Chief designer Arkady Slobodskoi, the supervisor of the MiG-29 program, said, "if our plane is within range of an opponent and has a direct shot, the enemy can be considered destroyed. It only takes 5-6 machine gun bursts."

The United States, which is aware of the impressive combat potential of Russian fighters, had even purchased a squadron of MiG-29s from Moldova after the Soviet Union disintegrated. (That squadron was deployed at an airfield near Chisinau.) Germany, which had obtained a number of MiG-29s after reunification, helped repair the Moldovan fighters. Both Germany and the United States now use these aircraft to train their pilots, so that the pilots can cope with the 7,000 Russian fighters in the world. Britain's Military Balance magazine estimated that India had more than 500 Russian-made fighters. It was therefore not surprising that Indian pilots could defeat their American rivals, despite the U.S. Air Force's intensive combat-training programs.

On the other hand, American pilots have not confronted any serious adversaries for a long time. The U.S. Air Force dominated the skies over Yugoslavia in 1999 and in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Iraqi planes were grounded during both campaigns. Therefore, mock combat is the only way to amass experience.

The long standing American Air Force mentality prevents its pilots from confronting their Russian counterparts because any possible setback would be detrimental to morale. An American Air Force pilot must be convinced that he can and must defeat the former "theoretical enemy." At the same time, these problems do not exist for mock combat exercises against Indian pilots because any defeats can be explained by inadequate training.

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.