Medieval Ancestors Measured Up To Our Height Standards

The Times/British Archaeology ^ | 9-19-2005 | Norman Hammond

[andysandmikesmom]

My mothers side of the family is 100% Norwegian...and all the men are very tall...

My son who is 6'5" and about 260lbs, loves to travel...and a few years ago, he took a year long trip around the world...he did not go the usual tourist way, as he hates any kind of tour which is organized...he traveled on his own, usually staying in hostels, or when he could living with the people who were native to the region he was visiting....being that he is so big, even by American standards, he really stood out in countries, where men are just normally small and much shorter than here in America...

He has traveled in places such as Fiji, Thailand, Nepal, Tibet, Australia, New Zealand, most of Western Europe, much of the middle East, and much of Central America...in almost every country he visited he just stood out, being so big...he often had trouble fitting in local buses, had terrible problems trying to buy local clothing to fit him, and just in general, found himself being pointed at, as he just stood out...

In many different places were he lived with the people, they would always have a phrase, in their native tongue, that they would use to refer to him...when he would translate the phrase, it was usually a phrase which referred to him as 'the giant American'....he always got a kick out of that...

Suffice it to say, his giant size, along with his good nature and witty manner, make him a person that most of the people housing him, will remember as one of their more unusual guests...

[an amused spectator]

“The enduring myth that people in the past were much shorter than we are today contains a small element of truth,” writes Sebastian Payne, chief scientist at English Heritage, in British Archaeology. “There have been small changes, and average height has increased by an inch or so over the past 50 years,” he says, attributing the increase to better health and nutrition.

Riggghhhht. Only an inch or so. I was one of the tallest guys in my class 30 years ago. I look around at today's high school kids, and they're TREES. I walked into an auto parts store the other day and I had to look up at the two kids who were behind the counter. It was unusual enough that I remarked on it to my pal.

[nopardons]

I always enjoy reading your thoughtful posts, even when I take umbrage at some of your positions.

So please allow me to posit a hypothetical question to you. If you found out that there was no resurrection and that as we both think, that Muhammad was nothing but a nutter and a liar, we'll throw out Islam as worthless, but that Moses and the burning bush was for real, would you then follow all Jewish laws and rites? Judaism really all that different from Christianity. So what would you jettison ( Christian tenets ) from following, that you adhere to now?

[Fruit of the Spirit]

"Nown to his subjects as Edward Longshanks."

No, "Longshanks" was Edw. I, Edw. III's grandfather.

[Fruit of the Spirit]

"Yeh...and I'd like to see the dead ten year old's medical history and know cause of death."

Yorkshire...the Black Plague, perhaps?

[Fruit of the Spirit]

You're exactly right!

Standing next to a draft horse, you realize their immense size.

[Kiss Me Hardy]

Thanks, CompSciGuy has already cast the light of accuracy on my ignorance -- and I'm a better man for it, too

[Monkey Face]

I believe the Amish and similar sects still use draft horses; they are trained quite well to pull farm equipment, and if they ever go on sale, they are worth buying.

[Fruit of the Spirit]

"I believe the Amish and similar sects still use draft horses..."

I'm not so sure about that. I know the Mennonites use "average" size horses.

Great Britain is where they still use draft/breed horses.

(Joan Embry (San Diego Zoo) had/raised Clydedales at her ranch in El Cajon.)

[Monkey Face]

Could be, but it would have to be a heavy breed. My sister and her hubby bought a team when they lived in MN, but I never saw them. Only photos.

[Vicomte13]

"If you found out that there was no resurrection and that as we both think, that Muhammad was nothing but a nutter and a liar, we'll throw out Islam as worthless, but that Moses and the burning bush was for real, would you then follow all Jewish laws and rites? Judaism really all that different from Christianity. So what would you jettison ( Christian tenets ) from following, that you adhere to now?"

Yes.
I would need to actually see, not the burning bush, and not the flowing of the tide over the Egyptians (although I would want to see those things), but particularly God speaking on the mount to the assembled Jews in the loud and booming voice. Give me my time machine cum-cloaking-device-cum-universal-translator and let me see it happen, but then see that Jesus and Mohammed were frauds, and I would become a devout Jew.

You ask what tenets, and what would be different.

What KIND of Jew would be difficult for me, because the Temple is down and there are no Jews practicing the Judaism of the Temple. Orthodox and Conservatives practice the Judaism of the Talmud, which, of course, was written down after the destruction of the high priesthood.

There being no high priest anymore, and no Temple rites, it is difficult to know precisely what parts of rabbinnical Judaism are purely correct. My judgment is that Orthodox Judaism, but not the black-hatted Hasidim kind (whom I take to be culturally trapped in the stetl and preserving the culture of Ashkenaz but not perforce of David) is the closest. It would make aliyah and reside in Jerusalem, where I would spend the rest of my life in rabbinnical training and seek to become a rabbi.

I would follow all of the dietary rules, and all 613 commandments to the extent I could.

This is not a very hard question, really, for if one is certain of the existence of God, then the moral laws are fixed and it is only a matter of good sense to obey them and please the master. Really it is no different than good investment practice. Once you know you have a good, solid investment, you put your money there and earn the returns.

However, absent substantial proof of the religion, I am certainly not going to even pretend the adopt the dietary practices, nor keep the Sabbath, nor have my sons circumcised, none of that. I currently consider all of those things to be cultural practices parallel to the Greek rites concerning Zeus and Pallas Athena. I don't think God ever stood on a mountain and told anybody not to eat pork.
If I had proof he did, I'd forego my bacon and become a Jew.
Without that proof, I will not be a Jew.

[nopardons]

Fascinating and quite logical reply. I applaud you!

The Hasidic movement began in Poland ( those hats are copies of 17/18th century hats worn by the Polish aristocracy ) and though I am no expert on the Hasidim, I don't think that they are close to what Judaism was when it began, nor even what it was 1,000 years ago.

[Vicomte13]

My own theory is that the closest thing you can get to the Judaism of the Temple, with its mitred high priests and rites is the most ancient rites of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, such as the Maronites or Copts or Antiochans. These most ancient Christian forms have their roots in the First Century, when the Christians were still largely Jews, and believed themselves to be the true continuation of - and competitor to - Judaism. When one reads Josephus in particular, himself a First Century Jew and a high priest of the Temple, his depiction of the Jewish rites shows were so many of the Christian rites came from.
I would make the case that the most ancient forms of Christianity are actually TEMPLAR JUDAISM, with the belief that the Messiah has come, while rabbinnical Judaism of all sorts is more of a "Protestant" text-and-tradition form of Judaism. I would describe the Christian Protestants, particularly the Bible-only types, as Karaites.

All of these considerations makes me turn to the scientifically provable or falsifiable aspects of Christianity.
I have come up with a reasonable list of things that, absent a time machine, have the potential to give me reasonably good empirical grounds for believing that the Christian religion actually describes truths about an actual, intelligent, opinionated God.

Clearly, these scientifically examinable things must be MIRACLES, real-world events, occurrences and objects which otherwise break the physical laws and the laws of probability.

Here is my list:
(1) The medical miracles and near-miracles at the Marian Shrine of Lourdes, in France. The International Scientific Committee there keeps scientifically acceptable records of the remarkable goings on.
The objection? "What, no wooden legs?" - Anatole France.

(2) The Shroud of Turin and Oviedo Cloth. Forensics have determined that its not a forgery, came from Palestine and probably dates from around the First Century. It's probably Jesus' burial cloth and facecloth. The blood is the exceedingly rare type AB, both on the shroud and the Oviedo Cloth, separated for thousands of years. The most interesting piece of evidence to me about the Shroud is the image of the coins on the eyes, whose lettering apparently can be read, and which matches up with existing specimens of Roman lepta coins, including a mis-spelling found on extant examples we have.

(3) The San Gennaro blood vial. It is real blood, hundreds of years old. It usually liquifies on certain dates about three times a year. This warrants examination.

(4) The miraculous flesh of the eucharistic host. Another medieval relic. A piece of flesh that is said to have resulted from the transformation of a communion wafer during the invocation by a saint. Certainly the FLESH is human flesh, now long mummified. This would seem to be an obvious hoax from the medievals, playing off of the Catholic concepts of trans-substantiation.
What disturbs me is that in the process of testing this ancient piece of flesh they obtained a blood sample.
And it is also that extremely rare type AB.

Very strange that medieval forgers of a relic should have happened to have chosen, or been able to find, a chunk of human flesh to use which would prove to have the same blood type as a cloth in Spain, which has been there since the 700s and came from Palestine, containing the blood alleged to be Christ's, and the Shroud of Turin, brought from Constantinople after the sack in 1204, and brought to Constantinople after its discovery hidden in the walls of Edessa in the 400s.
1% of people have type AB blood.
Strange that three forgers so far apart should have all chanced on that blood for their relics.
Passing strange.
Improbably strange.

Strange that the particularly stunning cases of medically inexplicable miracles have occurred so regularly at Lourdes, and not elsewhere.

And the beauty of these things, especially Lourdes, is that they place the skeptic and the fanatic on even footing. There is modern forensic and medical evidence, and records. These cases are seen by doctors, and documented.

One cannot deny what goes on there. And that SO MUCH OF IT goes on there is itself improbable. These things are the warp in the woof that, when studied, make it clear that there may be truth in the voices that one sometimes hears in one's head, or the visions we sometimes see. We can dismiss them as dreams or hallucinations, as we all do. But when they link up so perfectly with external phenomena such as Lourdes, we are forced to acknowledge that there is empirical evidence here that confirms what we suspect may well be true.

Unfortunately, this leaves us with the reality of a God who is real, and who is also really mean, kills us all, and gives babies spina bifida. To salvage the reputation of God then, and to make His character out to be better than a despot, we need to hope for Heaven in order to redeem Him from the consequences of being judged for his bad treatment of us, His creations.

[elli1]

Very possibly. But I was thinking more along the lines of general health condition from birth onwards and things like leukemia, heart abnormalities, malnourishment...conditions/ underlying disease that would cause a child to fail to thrive.

[ZULU]

I simply don't believe it.

I'm taller than my father and he was taller than his father.

Other studies have demonstrated that the average eight of Cro-Magnon man, who lived on a high protein diet was about 6'.

The early European explorers in North America commented on the much larger size of native Americans.

When people started living in large communities and eating a diet high in grains and low in animal protein, their body size diminished, as did their general health. Medieval serfs and members of the lower classes ate a diet high in grains and vegetables and low in animal proteins, and WERE smaller in size than their aristocratic contemporaries who ate a diet rich in animal protein. In addition, squalid living conditions, overcrowding, and industrial filth, which increased into the early twentieth century, contributed towards this trend.

Look at eastern Asian or South American individuals who emigrate to the U.S. They are frequently far shorter than their sons and daughters and grand children who eat better foods and live under healthier conditions.

The authors of this piece should go back to the drawing board.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

When the fight starts remember that I'm on your side.

Tall ones are difficult to fight, especially if they have strong legs. Outrunning them for a distance, an average man is also disadvantaged.

But, with a broken pelvis, nobody can stand up, and it is not that terribly difficult to break. Men that are knowledgeable, quick, very short and well built also have an advantage.

One funny episode in my life was a very short friend of mine who was 5'2" and built like a D-cell battery. He took on this lean giant of a man built like a pro basketball player. Shorty ran him down like a bowling ball picking up a spare. It was a Kodak moment.

[CompSciGuy]

I just read too much for my own good I'm afraid ;-). Besides you never know when a FRiend may end up on Jeopardy!

Cheers,
CSG

[Pharmboy]

“Recruits in 18th and 19th-century military records were considerably below today’s average heights,” he says, but adds: “Recruits are often from poorer families whose average height is less, and were often not fully grown.”

While that holds true for recent times, the knights in medieval days came from the top strata of the upper class.

[SunkenCiv]

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