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To: v. crow
Gentlemen, this is the important point I want you to take away from all this: 50 and 100 years ago, American factory workers sure as hell did not have the opportunity for massage therapy. Today they do, because they are individually more productive. The marginal ones lobby for tariffs. The real wages of productive individuals (not a stagnant industry refusing to change) rise in proportion to their productivity. This is eminently obvious when you think of labor as a commodity in a market. They rise because each individual's labor is more valuable as he becomes more productive. The marginal workers, the ones who aren't as productive, are laid off and they persue other productive employment.

It's not always a lack of productivity that causes a worker to be laid-off...sometimes it's just that they are in the wrong place, at the wrong time. No matter how productive they were, they now have nothing. The smart ones, energetic ones get into new jobs and careers, but at what cost? Looking at it in net terms, the worker with a new carrer will have to work a very, very long time... probably years, maybe a decade or two, before the recoop the cost of all that was lost during retraining, plus come back to a place where their wages equalled the amount they were being paid when they were laid-off. In terms of intangibles, like health care, those will probably never be as good for the worker. But in the meantime, inflation increases, prices increase, and the real buying power of our heroic worker DECREASES. Even if they can get back to their previous level of wages within five years, it's very likely prices have increased 10 to 15% in that time, still making for a net loss in purchasing power. Overall, decreasing wages are very, very unhealthy from an economic standpoint. We are seeing wages fall or stagnate all over the United States these past five years, which means that eventually the steam in our economic engine will be spent, and the economy will head south faster than Jesse Jackson to a television camera.

Angel Mills decided to persue massage therapy. Good on her. Shame on you for suggesting that instead the price of leather should increase 30% and the leather industry should stagnate until it's incompetent even at a 30% advantage.

I'm sorry, I did not suggest the price of leather should be increased, and it's not always a matter of the prices of goods or materials that's a factor, but rather the price of LABOR.

Labor prices are, for various reasons that I won't go into, very, very rigid. They go up easily, but not down. So when costs go up, or earnings go down, people are let go, rather than wages reduced. Right now we are in a situation as a nation where cheap labor is in vast supply overseas, and it's cheaper to do just about anything anywhere else than it is in the USA, with some exceptions. So companies are tripping over themselves moving production, engineering, information technology, and just about anything else not nailed down to overseas locations.

So, explain to me, if you could, how does this create a net benefit to the United States of America? Unless you own a company involved in import/export, where does one go to make a decent buck?

Other than healthcare, what field should I tell my children to get into so that they can enjoy at least a middle-class existance? What industry or career field is growing, looking for more people to fill it's ranks? Massage therapy?

495 posted on 09/21/2005 9:35:40 PM PDT by Ronzo (Poetry can be a better tool of understanding than tedious scribblings of winners of the Noble Prize)
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To: Ronzo
Other than healthcare, what field should I tell my children to get into so that they can enjoy at least a middle-class existance?

Engineering, for starters (if your kids are willing to work for their undergraduate degree). As for "healthcare," if you mean medicine or dentistry, you are well behind the times. The Feds have already sunk their claws into those two fields so deeply that they're simply not worth the time, money, and effort.

497 posted on 09/21/2005 9:48:13 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Ronzo
It's not always a lack of productivity that causes a worker to be laid-off...sometimes it's just that they are in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

That's called supply and demand? There isn't an infinite demand for shoes specifically. That's why the market will only bear so many shoe-makers before the rest have to find other demands to meet.

price of LABOR

Cheap labor is unproductive labor. If a person's labor is productive it is worth more. If I owned a farm, I would pay more for one skilled tractor and machine operator than a hundred unskilled laborers. As the owner of this farm, I would be utterly unconcerned with how cheaply foreigners hired labor because my American workers are more productive, by virtue of their greater skill and capital invested in their tools.

His individual labor is more productive, it earns me more money, so I pay more for him (because the market reality is likely that other farm owners also want the services of my skilled tractor operator). The PRICE of labor is set by supply and demand, and demand is influenced in a very large part in how productive the labor is.

Labor prices are, for various reasons that I won't go into, very, very rigid.

They're rigid because the market isn't allowed to operate freely to set the price of labor. If it's otherwise, then please enlighten me (I am ignorant).

So, explain to me, if you could, how does this create a net benefit to the United States of America?

I explained more than once how unfettered trade results in net gain due to efficiency in my first several posts in this thread. There is a chapter of Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt devoted to that very subject. The entire .pdf for the book is linked to in my about page.

Other than healthcare, what field should I tell my children to get into so that they can enjoy at least a middle-class existance? What industry or career field is growing, looking for more people to fill it's ranks? Massage therapy?

I would advise them to suck you dry for every bit of education you can afford. =) In addition, to gain practical experience and real world work experience at every single opportunity they can get it, even trading higher pay for the experience, in every useful field they can get their hand in. It is *really* nice to have the security and support of your family while you learn and gain all this useful experience. Not everyone has or had that. Then they should persue their specific field of interest. Some fields can be entered in just with higher education and common sense, while others you might have to persue on the side and support yourself with the best you can get. Once they're doing the work they love they should expand and innovate in their field. That's the American way.

I definitely would NOT advise getting a rudimentary technical education and doing the same set of mechanical motions for the next 40 years, hoping their pensions aren't allowed to lapse like has recently happened, and praying a glut of equally unskilled foreigners doesn't displace them and their high wages. That's no better than being a human robot in a factory. Why not be the one in charge of building or maintaining various robotic systems instead?

I'll give you a hint, we're not going back to the days where nailery workers cut nails by hand anytime soon, no matter how cheap Mexicans are willing to work. Specializing in a 6th grade education and a set of repetitive motions to work in the same textile mill for 40 years is just plain stupid. It shouldn't be protected by tariffs and the union bosses won't make it less stupid by pouting.

Personally, I find aerospace engineering and the future of private space exploration completely fascinating and very exciting. I will be steering my higher education in that direction while in the meantime I work, gain experience, and improve my life.

500 posted on 09/21/2005 10:24:20 PM PDT by v. crow
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To: Ronzo
Other than healthcare, what field should I tell my children to get into so that they can enjoy at least a middle-class existence?

Most new health care workers are from overseas, and work for less than American born workers in the same fields. Don't tell them to go into health care.

507 posted on 09/22/2005 9:01:26 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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