New laws 'will alienate mainstream Muslims'

Times Online(UK) ^ | Rajeev Syal

[milestogo]

New laws 'will alienate mainstream Muslims'

By Rajeev Syal

IN the immediate aftermath of the 7/7 bombings, Britain’s moderate Muslim leaders stood “shoulder to shoulder” with Tony Blair to condemn the attacks.

Just two months later, that consensus has broken down. Yesterday, those same leaders accused the Government of alienating moderates and helping extremists to thrive through the anti-terror plans.

Ghayasuddin Siddiqui, the leader of the Muslim Parliament, said that he and other mainstream leaders — widely characterised as the acceptable face of British Islam — have been frustrated. “We want to eliminate extremists within our community. But the Government seems to believe that we can only do so with legislation.

“The Prime Minister has underestimated the gulf between most Muslims, their leaders and the British Establishment. There needs to be consensus and discussion, and much gentle persuasion of mistrustful youth, not rules from on high,” he said.

Others have been concerned at the lack of consultation with moderate groups representing a majority of Britain’s 1.3 million Muslims. Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said that his group is being consulted over proposed “stop and search” policies but not over the anti-terror laws.

“There have been no talks, no advice, none that I know of with any Muslim. When it comes to what really matters, we are sidelined,” he said.

“We cannot be seen to support this legislation because it so obviously breaches human rights, and it will be British Muslims who will be targeted.

“The Government has not explained why the extension of detention to three months will make it more likely that we will detect terrorists,” he said.

One leading Muslim leader said that the legislation has driven a wedge between the Government and moderate Muslim groups who are struggling to gain the support of young British Muslims.

Ajamal Masroor, an executive member of the Islamic Society of Britain, said that his organisation would lose credibility if it supported the laws. “We have been trying over the last few weeks to win a war of ideas with a small number of our young people, and this legislation blows all of that hard work away.”

Mohammed Shahid Raza, an executive member of the Muslim College, which trains religious scholars, said that the targeting of radical Muslim clerics will alienate many young Muslims who have adopted their own imams.

THE MODERATES

The Muslim Parliament of Great Britain
Set up as radical organisation in 1992 — it supported fatwa against Salman Rushdie — its leaders are now firmly against “jihadist” movement in Britain

The Muslim Council of Britain
Umbrella organisation made up of 250 affiliated community groups and mosques from across country

Islamic Human Rights Commission
A non-profit- making, campaigning organisation affiliated to UN that has advised Government on number of policies

Islamic Society of Britain
Set up 1990, and known to be one of most progressive groups. It includes non-Muslim members

Muslim College
Privately run educational centre, led by Dr Zaki Badawi, that trains imams in Britain

[snarks_when_bored]

There needs to be consensus and discussion, and much gentle persuasion of mistrustful youth, not rules from on high,” he said.

The gunshot Theo van Gogh tried "much gentle persuasion" as his muslim attacker plunged a knife repeatedly into his heart.

[Wombat101]

Gee,isn't that obvious? In Europe, Muslims have been allowed to emmigrate in huge numbers to simply do the jobs Europeans won't (like collect garbage or clean sewers) and pay the taxes that support the cradle to grave welfare state.

In Britain proper, they are encouraged to emmigrate because of British guilt over the Empire, which furnishes them with all the welfare they can stand and let's then lets them be.

In America, Muslims come here because of all the intangibles that are not available in their own culture (freedom, economic opportunity, etc) and for the tangibles that Muslim society is unable to create, jobs, education,economic opportunity, open heart surgery and air conditioning.

Why do Muslims hate the West?

Because there is no possible way that God's Chosen could live in a self-imposed hellhole, so we infidels must have made a pact with the Devil in order to enjoy everything we have. Therefore, it is the duty of every Koran-carrying member of Islam to enjoy the fruits of the Infidel's labor while doing everything possible to undermine and destroy him. In this fashion, a Muslim may better his lot in life without DIRECTLY engaging in prohibited conduct and still fufill jis duty to kill the enemies of Islam.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Ghayasuddin Siddiqui ? Is that the Siddiqui clan from Sussex ?

[GOPJ]

I'm not paranoid... they ARE out to kill me.

You're right. The radical death cult part of Islam is out to kill you - and me - and all of us who aren't nutcases like them. On this part we agree. I'm not asking to you be tolerant of killers. I don't want you to be tolerant of our enemy.

Here's my problem with your way of seeing the world. I'll use an example from our culture: Let's say a radical feminist and I both agree that men who rape 3 year olds should receive mandatory death penalties. OK, so far, so good. But the feminist has decided that all men should receive death penalties because she doesn't want to see the difference between a man and a man who rapes children. All child rapist might be men, but all men are not rapist. It's the same with Muslims. All terrorists are Muslim, but not all Muslims are terrorists. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

[Wombat101]

Honestly, I cannot tell you.

As far as I'm concerned they all fall into the same general category: desert-dwelling POS's who can't get a oozy black substance that naturally percolates UP out of the ground without western money, technology and expertise, and then blames us for a society permanently frozen in the 7th century.

I'm only sorry that I'm a bit too understated about this. (/sarcasm)

[Eric in the Ozarks]

These ragheads couldn't find Sussex on a map.

[Wombat101]

Quite frankly, I can hardly find it myself, and I've BEEN THERE.

I'm a Yank, not a Brit. Sorry if I gave this impression.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Saw the NC flag.

[GOPJ]

They hate the West. Why are they here ?

The ones who hate the West are here to kill us. They're the "Atta's" and other evil nutcases. And we're at war with them, as we should be.

But other Muslims are here for the same reasons my ancestors came here -- for a better life for themselves and their children in a free country. And they are not our enemy.

These two groups are not the same -- and to play them that way is cruel. In World War II my father's family, who had immigrated from Germany in the late 1890s, joined the American military services and fought the Germans.

My uncle was there for D-day at Normandy. His Grandfather was a loyal American who still spoke the German from the old country. I know loyal Muslim Americans. And it's painful to see them painted with the broad brush of ignorance. So, please, let's stand united against the radical Muslim enemy, but not against our neighbors who just happen to be a different religion.

[GOPJ]

Tell me, where did your family come from?

[Eric in the Ozarks]

The silence of these moderate Muslims is deafening.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

They didn't come to destroy US society but to adopt it.

[bullseye1911]

We don't need to alienate them, we need to annihilate them

[Wombat101]

I disagree. These are not merely "neighbors who practice a different religion" because Islam is NOT a religion. It is a system of control over the lives of people that would have made the KGB green with envy. It is a social control system with a religious patina. It is an excuse to murder, rape, pillage and plunder with the built-in, conscious-soothing platitude that such things are "God's Will" because they are directed at non-members of the club.

There cannot be anything resembling a "Westernized" Muslim because that is a contradiction. You are either a Westerner or you are a Muslim, a believer or an infidel. It is your duty, proclaimed by God, to destroy those that oppose the spread of His will. If you fail to do so, because you've been co-opted by the ways of Western life, then you too, are marked as an infidel, or worse, an apostate.

[FairfaxVA]

Exactly!

[Eric in the Ozarks]

You've nailed it.

[Wombat101]

Thank you. However, I would have thought such things were obvious to even the most mentally-challenged amongst us (democrats and college professors) but apparently it needs to be repeated often.

[brownsfan]

"Do you see what I'm trying to say?"

Oddly enough, in a typwritten message I do see what you're trying to say. :) And I understand it as well, but there's a flaw in your analogy.

islamists follow the koran. The koran is a bloody document. Still, this would not be a fatal flaw in the religion, if the extremists didn't take it literally. They do.
Men are not constantly taught that raping 3 year olds is good. islamists are taught that anyone who doesn't follow the koran and acknowledge allah should be converted or killed. They don't believe in coexistance. That's why in Gaza, perfectly good buildings, that poor people, (palestinians), could use are being burned to the ground. To the islamists, the buildings are "tainted".
The leaders of these people are not rational.

It comes back to a point I tried to make with you in my previous post. I would grant you that not all muslims are bad. I'll go one step further, I'm willing to bet that some muslims are among the finest people in the world. It's impossible to have that many in a group without having good souls in the mix. However, islam as it is currently practiced is a death cult. And the more moderate among muslims are complicit in their silence.

We have 3 options:
#1 - Deal with islam as though it's a legitimate religion, and try to embrace the good while fighting the evil. My problem with that is that the pull of the evil is strong, and the good seem to gravitate to such archaic things as sharia law and extreme mullahs and imams.

#2 - Give in. Convert. Make islam the one world religion.
Out of the question for me.

#3 - Ostricize the bunch of them. Put such pressure on the entire death clan that they attempt to resolve their problems from within. We are infidels. We cannot help, we cannot contribute. They see us as less than human, and much like Jews, the "sons of monkeys and pigs". If we isolate them, one of two things will result: Either they will resolve their bloodlust and come to some form of compromise, or they'll decide the extremists are right and it will be all out war. In either case, a final resolution will be the result. No more killing 1 - 2 hundered a day with suicide bombers.

I've chosen. I'm with option 3. I don't choose lightly. I am not foaming at the mouth and filled with rage. I just am aware, and my interpretation of the situation leads to this conclusion.

[GOPJ]

#1 - Deal with Islam as though it's a legitimate religion, and try to embrace the good while fighting the evil. My problem with that is that the pull of the evil is strong, and the good seem to gravitate to such archaic things as sharia law and extreme mullahs and imams.

Here's the problem with religions that have a strong authoritarian component. They lend themselves to dictators and thugs. It's one of the reasons there are few dictators running countries where the dominant religion is Protestant. It's not a religion that has strong appeal to authority. In countries where the majority of the people are Catholic, odds increase there will be a goon or thug running things. Islam takes it one step further -- it's top down, don't question -- and strict enforcement of beliefs. Throw in the subjection of women and it's odd. So, I can see your point. What we need to encourage is a reformation. The incentive patterns in ME type Islam create what we see -- despair, too many children, anger, endless bad choices, goons, thugs, cruelty, close families, caring extended families, dangerous "magical thinking," suicide killers, and heroic stoicism. It's all there and it's all reinforced.

#2 - Give in. Convert. Make Islam the one world religion. Out of the question for me.

No, this is not acceptable.

#3 - Ostracize the bunch of them. Put such pressure on the entire death clan that they attempt to resolve their problems from within. We are infidels. We cannot help, we cannot contribute. They see us as less than human, and much like Jews, the "sons of monkeys and pigs". If we isolate them, one of two things will result: Either they will resolve their bloodlust and come to some form of compromise, or they'll decide the extremists are right and it will be all out war. In either case, a final resolution will be the result. No more killing 1 - 2 hundred a day with suicide bombers.

This won't work either. We're already "ostracizing" the death cult part -- maybe even more than that -- we're at war with them. The other part, there's no reason to ostracize them. They're just people gong about their lives...

The answer does exist... I'm sure we'll cross paths again, and there's lots of time to figure this out -- the problem's not going away any time soon.

[GOPJ]

See post #39