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To: Mind-numbed Robot
Dear Mind-numbed Robot,

"The figures you quoted from Limbaugh's site are the accepted wisdom of the day. I don't argue with them. What is not said in those figures, and what will make the difference in the transition, is that only about 50% of all of us pay taxes at all. That certainly includes me, I get an undeserved earned income credit, and possibly you."

No, that's wrong. The Limbaugh figures actually speak to the fact that precisely 4% of federal income taxes are paid by the bottom 50% of households.

But that will mostly stay the same under the new system, as FOLKS WILL GET PREBATES, and those prebates will add up to most, if not all, of the taxes paid by folks in the same bottom 50% of households.

That's how the NRST retains progressivity.

"That certainly includes me, I get an undeserved earned income credit, and possibly you."

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about the Earned Income Tax Credit, the EITC? Do you receive that? I certainly don't, and never have.

"There are many, and not just the rich, and again even you, who use legal means to avoid taxes. That includes a fair chunk of the middle class, especially the entrepreneurial middle class."

Yeah, I agree. And that's part of WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY FOR A LONG TIME. Even though nominal income tax rates are high, most folks don't actually pay anything close to the nominal rates, even in their brackets.

I mean, heck, the nominal rate for the rich is 35%, not 27.5%, right? And remember, starting around $150K, most deductions, and even many "tax-free" sources of income start getting taken back by the tax code. By the time you get to the median of the top 1% (which, if I recall correctly, is about $400K), folks can't even deduct their state taxes from income to reduce their federal income tax burden. Only a narrow range of "tax-free" bonds remain tax-free, with most of them becoming entirely taxable.

So, the bottom line is, the top 1% of folks get 17.5% of the national personal income (by the way, if this doesn't represent something close to ACTUAL INCOME, not just TAXABLE INCOME, then the top 1% get an even HIGHER level of the national income). But these folks pay 34% of the personal federal income taxes. And they pay at a rate of 27.5%.

"In addition, many people like you will become larger contributors to the tax base."

I already AM a large contributor to the tax base. I work hard to minimize my federal income taxes, but I pay plenty, still.


"Even if your business is tax exempt by it nature, you aren't. There are millions like you. (That is probably your true objection to the change.)"

There you go again, ascribing evil motives - I'm selfish, I just don't want to pay more in taxes, that's why I'm opposed to this edenic program.

Nope. Completely wrong. I just think it's a bad idea at the levels of taxation we currently have.

"The tax shelters for the rich will be gone,..."

Sorry, Rush's numbers show that the "tax shelters for the rich" are modest, at most. The rich currently pay 27.5% of their income in federal income taxes. That will fall to an absolute upper ceiling of 23% under the NRST, and probably to half that amount - closer to 12%.

"In your case and of those like you, you ignore the costs that are now part of everything you buy."

No, actually, based on my own research, I think that the costs to which you refer are very modest. I look at my own experience, the experience of other small businessmen I know, and the actual financials of large corporations. The costs are real. In absolute terms, they're in the many billions of dollars.

But as a percentage of GDP, as a percentage of the cost of goods and services sold, it's very, very modest. Low single digit percentages.

"Ask yourself whether you would even be in the business you are if it weren't for its tax niche?"

You know, that's a pretty insulting question, Mind-numbed Robot. You don't know a thing about my business, and you should keep your fingers off your keyboard rather than make asinine assumptions like that.

My business would exist no matter what the tax laws were.

My views of the NRST aren't about what happens to me, but what I think will happen to the country. I think, with current levels of federal spending, the NRST will harm the country, harm the economy.

Would that you weren't so caught up in your own delusional system that you could ascribe decent motives to those who disagree with you.


Perhaps you're projecting.


sitetest
308 posted on 09/16/2005 12:05:24 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 306 | View Replies ]


To: sitetest
There you go again, ascribing evil motives - I'm selfish, I just don't want to pay more in taxes, that's why I'm opposed to this edenic program.

I almost included a note to make sure this wasn't misunderstood. Perhaps that illustrates another difference between us. I don't consider the desire to avoid taxes as evil, I see it as human and natural. Just as with the NRST, if it weren't for all the benefits that I SEE, speaking strictly for myself and intending no slight to you, for the good of everyone which will help me in the long run, I would be against it because I will change from a receiver to a payer. I don't willingly pay more without added benefit.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you talking about the Earned Income Tax Credit, the EITC? Do you receive that? I certainly don't, and never have.

Another misunderstanding. I was referring to paying taxes, not the EITC. You have corrected that.

Our difference is that I see a benefit and you don't. Morality has nothing to do with it.

No, that's wrong. The Limbaugh figures actually speak to the fact that precisely 4% of federal income taxes are paid by the bottom 50% of households.

There is no conflict between that figure and what I said. Both can easily and logically be true. Part of the 50% who pay no taxes are in the top 50% of households and some in the bottom 50% pay taxes. That has no impact at all on the fact that about 50% of us pay no taxes.

But that will mostly stay the same under the new system, as FOLKS WILL GET PREBATES, and those prebates will add up to most, if not all, of the taxes paid by folks in the same bottom 50% of households.

You are confusing household income with taxes paid. With our present system that is not a linear connection. Under the NRST it will be.

Yeah, I agree. And that's part of WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY FOR A LONG TIME (Entrepreneurs taking legal tax breaks.). Even though nominal income tax rates are high, most folks don't actually pay anything close to the nominal rates, even in their brackets.

This seems to be suggesting that even though the rich pay a lot of taxes, the dollar sum is not as great as it may appear. That makes it easier for the increased tax payers under the NRST close the tax collection gap.

Sorry, Rush's numbers show that the "tax shelters for the rich" are modest, at most. The rich currently pay 27.5% of their income in federal income taxes. That will fall to an absolute upper ceiling of 23% under the NRST, and probably to half that amount - closer to 12%.

According to the numbers released during the presidential campaign, Theresa Heinz Kerry paid only 12% of an estimate $800,000 income. How did that happen? Is she unique?

No, actually, based on my own research, I think that the costs to which you refer (embedded costs) are very modest. I look at my own experience, the experience of other small businessmen I know, and the actual financials of large corporations. The costs are real. In absolute terms, they're in the many billions of dollars.

But as a percentage of GDP, as a percentage of the cost of goods and services sold, it's very, very modest. Low single digit percentages.

First, you can't dig that information out of an annual report. What you are looking at is the percent of corporate taxes paid compared, I guess, to gross income, although the taxes are figured on net. Using gross is the only way you can compare that to GDP, which in itself is a deceptive and wrong comparison.

Embedded costs are in everything the corporation buys and in the services they use. Those aren't annual report line items and most corporations aren't even aware of them. They are, however, in the costs they consider to price their own goods or services and to determine their profit and taxes.

In addition, the GDP includes ALL goods and services. That include the millions of small mom and pop businesses, every doctor, lawyer, artist, etc., who plays in the market place.

To take annual reports, which don't even account for embedded costs, your own experience whose embedded and compliance costs are minimized (that is not an insult, it is my opinion and it reflects human nature, not deviousness or evil), your friends and acquaintances who are also not likely knowledgeable about embedded costs, and then comparing that to the GDP is by nature going to yield a small percentage.

You know, that's a pretty insulting question, Mind-numbed Robot. You don't know a thing about my business, and you should keep your fingers off your keyboard rather than make asinine assumptions like that.

My business would exist no matter what the tax laws were.

I am simply amazed at your proclivity to find insults where none are intended nor, indeed, even there. In one of our very first exchanges you took exception to a nothing comment. I have been exceptionally careful since. Had I read your entire post before I started replying I would have covered this at the top with the others.

Are you aware of how many business advice and self-help books are written to help people decide their true calling and find the right niche for themselves? Are you in anyway aware of how many people are in businesses they don't like, tax benefit or not? I'll bet fully 75% of all people are in jobs they don't particularly care for. They are doing what they think they need to do to make a living and support their families.

For you to consider that question an insult says more about your insecurities than any projection on my part.

Would that you weren't so caught up in your own delusional system that you could ascribe decent motives to those who disagree with you.

Now there is a true example of projections. There is another SQLer that I no longer respond to because anytime his tail feathers get singed he runs to the moderater and cries, Mommy. they are being mean to me. You will be happy to know that I will not bother with you anymore either.

Tell your shrink I said hi. Don't look for an insult there, I intended it as one. If I were to say what I am suppressing I would be banned from even the Smokey Back Room

312 posted on 09/16/2005 1:50:37 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Sorry that I had to drop out of the conversation earlier. After I had posted # 87 I then went back)
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