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To: muir_redwoods

Remember - a 44 magnum pistol only has a fraction of the power of a 30-30, which few would choose to hunt bears with. That said, in a full metal jacket a .357 would do some genuine harm - if you have the nerve to aim carefully, or if you shot it while being mauled...

I think the park service rules are like military regulations - for the guidance of the wise and the strict adherence of fools. When hiking in Glacier, Yellowstone etc, a good concealed handgun could be a very good friend.

In fact, even a 22 can be a good friend. Years ago, when hiking in a National Forest, I returned to my car to find 8 drunk teen-agers sprawled on it. They lowered their bottles and started to surround me when I pulled out my trusty S&W 22-32 kit gun. Having fired thousands of rounds thru it, I had no doubt I could shoot 6 of them in the head. They must have agreed, 'cause they backed off and 'let' me get in my car.

Not all varmits have 4 legs...


38 posted on 09/11/2005 5:12:23 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Mr Rogers
Smith & Wesson's Model 317 "Kit Gun" has an 8-shot cylinder so that would give you one shot for each punk.
107 posted on 09/11/2005 5:44:45 PM PDT by Archidamus (We are wise because we are not so highly educated as to look down on our laws and customs)
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To: Mr Rogers
I think the park service rules are like military regulations - for the guidance of the wise and the strict adherence of fools. When hiking in Glacier, Yellowstone etc, a good concealed handgun could be a very good friend.

If it is concealed it will be difficult to deploy in a hurry. Also, if you do shoot and injure or kill a bear in a national park, you would need a hell of a good lawyer and some deep pockets, the feds would go after you like you were a child molester. Don't think they would have pity on you because your life was in jeopardy.....they would not.

121 posted on 09/11/2005 6:14:05 PM PDT by Wycowboy
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To: Mr Rogers
You wrote: Remember - a 44 magnum pistol only has a fraction of the power of a 30-30, which few would choose to hunt bears with.

Here is a paste from Remington's online ammo catalog. As you can see the 'energy' of a .30-30 and .44 mag, particularly at the muzzle (where self protection shootings take place) are pretty close. Of couser you specified power and there is not an agreed upon 'power' formula for bullets.

One of the oldest and frequently cited is the Taylor Knock Out Factor, which Mr. Taylor a professional hunter created to mirror his observations of different bullets on charging African game.

TKO is calculated by multiplying bullet weight in grains X muzzle velocity X caliber divided by 7000. Using this formula the .44 Mag has a TKO of 24 to the .30-30's value of 14.

Note: the muzzle velocity for the .44's here are high because it's for rifle length barrels like the many lever actions chambered in this round.

In summary I think you can make a pretty good case that the .44 mag is a better bear stopper than a .30-30, in similar guns, and maybe the equal in the guns more typical for each (ie: revolver vs. lever gun )

30-30 Win.

44 Remington Magnum

Index No. Cartridge Type Wt. (grs) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient

R30302 Remington Express 170 Soft Point Core-Lokt® 9 1/2 0.254

R44MG3 Remington Express 240 Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point 2 1/2 0.166

VELOCITY (ft/sec)

Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

Remington Express 170 SP CL 2200 1895 1619 1381 1191 1061

Remington Express 240 SJ HP 1760 1380 1114 970 878 806

ENERGY (ft-lbs)

Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500

Remington Express 170 SP CL 1827 1355 989 720 535 425

Remington Express 240 SJ HP 1650 1015 661 501 411 346

131 posted on 09/11/2005 6:21:19 PM PDT by Jack Black
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