To: PeaRidge
However, as you remember in Lincoln's first inauguration speech, he did state it was his primary interest to collect the tariff.Nowhere did Lincoln say in his first inaugural that collecting the tariff was his "primary" interest. That's your commentary and not his. In the same sentence he mentioned that he'd also hold on to US government property, so shelling a United States fort and preventing supplies have as much weight as tariff collection. He also said that he'd continue mail service, so you could just as easily infer that the war was fought to force the south to accept the U.S. mail.
Why would you be surprised that the South imported large numbers of product? Some around here think that the data, showing a large value in consumable imports headed South, somehow leads to the conclusion that the data should be in doubt.
I wasn't surprised that the south would import large amounts of goods. I was, however, surprised by the Encarta numbers you presented which appeared to show that the south imported ten times more than the north. Of course you now admit that the northern numbers are flawed.
With that, perhaps they sounded more believable to you.
No, when the south's foreign imports composed something more like a 25-30% of the US total as opposed to 90%, they sounded more believable.
When government laws are established that favor one people or one section over the other, that is not only unfair, it was abusive.
So please explain to me how these laws favored the north in ways that they couldn't have equally favored southern interests, had the south bothered to build ships and warehouses. I think Coker makes a valid point that the south chose to expend their capital on expanding their agricultural production instead of on ships. So why do they then complain that they're being taken advantage of by northern shippers? Frankly it seems very akin to the sorts of complaints lodged against Jews, the same sort of economic conspiracy theory to make someone feel better about their lack of business acumen.
It was massive, and designed to develop a channel in the harbor to handle the newest and largest deep draft ocean going freighters.
So that southern complaint, presumably, had been addressed. Now if they'd taken the responsibility of building their own ships and warehouses, the rest of these complaints you enumerate would have been equally addressed.
As Lincoln also said in the first inaugural, "Will you hazard so desperate a step while there is any possibility that any portion of the ills you fly from have no real existence?"
To: Heyworth
You are changing the subject again. Have you conceded the points that a. the South was a heavy importer, b. that point of entry tells us nothing about who pays tariffs and c. and that consumption data is based on supply and demand?
To: Heyworth
"Nowhere did Lincoln say in his first inaugural that collecting the tariff was his primary interest."
Well, let's visit Lincoln's thinking through his letters and messages to see what his interest was:
Lincoln two weeks before he took office.............
"[I]f the consideration of the Tariff bill should be postponed until the next session of the National Legislature, no subject should engage your representatives more closely than that of a tariff - Abraham Lincoln, February 15, 1861
Lincoln as he took office..........
"The power confided to me, will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property, and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion--no using of force against, or among the people anywhere." - Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1861
Lincoln, two weeks into the job....
Sir: I shall be obliged if you will give me your opinion in writing whether under the Constitution and existing laws, the Executive has power to collect duties on ship-board, off-shore, in cases where their collection in the ordinary way is, by any cause, rendered impracticable. This would include the question of lawful power to prevent the landing of dutiable goods, unless the duties were paid." - Abraham Lincoln to Edward Bates, March 18, 1861
Lincoln obsessisng on the same topic again on the same day......
"Sir I shall be obliged if you will inform me whether any goods, wares and merchandize, subject by law to the payment of duties, are now being imported into the United States without such duties being paid, or secured according to law. And if yea, at what place or places? and for what cause do such duties remain unpaid, or [un]secured? I will also thank you for your opinion whether, as a matter of fact, vessels off shore could be effectively used to prevent such importation, or to enforce the payment or securing of the duties. If yea, what number, and description of vessels, in addition to those already in the Revenue service would be requisite?" - Abraham Lincoln to Salmon P. Chase, March 18, 1861
And his most revealing comment:
"Another effort was made to move Abraham Lincoln to peace. On the 22nd, a deputation of six members from each of the five Christian Associations of Young Men in Baltimore, headed by Dr. Fuller, and eloquent clergyman of the Baptist church, went to Washington and had an interview with the President. He received them with a sort of rude formality. Dr. Fuller said, that Maryland had first moved in adopting the constitution, and yet the first blood in this war was shed on her soil; he then interceded for a peaceful separation, entreated that no more troops should pass through Baltimore, impressed upun Mr. Lincoln the terrible responsibility resting on him - that on him depended peace or war - a fratricidal conflict or a happy settlement.
"But," said Lincoln, "what am I to do?"
"Let the country know that you are disposed to recognize the Southern Confederacy," answered Dr. Fuller, "and peace will instantly take the place of anxiety and suspense and war may be averted."
"And what is to become of the revenue?" rejoined Lincoln, "I shall have no government, no resources!"
"He also said that he'd continue mail service, so you could just as easily infer that the war was fought to force the south to accept the U.S. mail."
That is a leap not worth addressing. Long before he took office, he planned to forgo everything except revenue collection.
"Yours kindly seeking my view as to the proper mode of dealing with secession, was received several days ago, but, for want of time I could not answer it till now. I think we should hold the forts, or retake them, as the case may be, and collect the revenue. We shall have to forego the use of the federal courts, and they that of the mails, for a while. We can not fight them in to holding courts, or receiving the mails. This is an outline of my view; and perhaps suggests sufficiently, the whole of it." - Abraham Lincoln, letter to Col. J.W. Webb, December 29, 1860
To: Heyworth
"I was, however, surprised by the Encarta numbers you presented which appeared to show that the south imported ten times more than the north."
Your mistake and we have covered that.
"Of course you now admit that the northern numbers are flawed."
The numbers were not mine. I do not admit anything because I do not know of their source.
"So please explain to me how these laws favored the north in ways that they couldn't have equally favored southern interests,"
You have already seen the explanations on this thread.
"had the south bothered to build ships and warehouses. I think Coker makes a valid point that the south chose to expend their capital on expanding their agricultural production instead of on ships."
Coker was commenting on Charleston. Picture was quite different elsewhere.
"So that southern complaint, presumably, had been addressed."
And you miss the really important point that now Charleston would be able to handle the deep draft ocean going ships that would open direct trade to that port. This was a threat to New York and Philly.
"So why do they then complain that they're being taken advantage of by northern shippers?"
I haven't seen much evidence of that. It was the unfair treatment under the laws that was the problem.
"Frankly it seems very akin to the sorts of complaints lodged against Jews, the same sort of economic conspiracy theory to make someone feel better about their lack of business acumen."
Your posts are becoming silly.
To: Heyworth
Now if they'd taken the responsibility of building their own ships and warehouses, the rest of these complaints you enumerate would have been equally addressed. How dare you suggest that Southern gentlemen actually take responsibility for this sort of enterprise. Why that would require...hard work, sweat, and mingling with mud-sills. Not to mention, skill and ingenuity...
880 posted on
10/07/2005 4:18:32 PM PDT by
mac_truck
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