[thomaswest]

In addition, intelligent agents, while not predictable (although, neither is quantum mechanics), does have general characteristics that can be measured and observed. Namely bringing order and pattern to otherwise chaotic systems.

"How many Scientific theories are dependent upon an unobservable and unmeasurable force acting upon matter with an unknown mechanism?"

You may chose to believe that all airplanes fly because an "intelligent designer" keeps all the air molecules moving just so right. Or that bridges stay up when you are crossing because some god keeps all the iron atoms and their electrons doing just the right thing. This is where ID breaks down completely. Is it 'irreducibly complex' to have atoms and chemical bonds?

Good old secular engineering is a better explanation for airplanes flying than either prayer or than "unobservable and unmeasurable forces".

[johnnyb_61820]

"You may chose to believe that all airplanes fly because an "intelligent designer" keeps all the air molecules moving just so right."

That's actually true. We call this intelligent designer a "Boeing Engineer".

"or that bridges stay up when you are crossing because some god keeps all the iron atoms and their electrons doing just the right thing."

I call this "god" a "structural engineer".

"Good old secular engineering is a better explanation for airplanes flying than either prayer or than "unobservable and unmeasurable forces"."

So you can measure the creativity that an engineer puts to his plans? Great! I'd love to see it. And engineering operates without design of any sort? I'd love to see that, too.