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N.Y. judge hesitant on Abu Ghraib photos
ap on Bakersfield Californian ^ | 8/30/05 | Larry Neumeister - ap

Posted on 08/30/2005 7:05:04 PM PDT by NormsRevenge

NEW YORK (AP) - A judge said Tuesday he was hesitant to release pictures and videotapes of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison while top government officials insisted that deaths could result.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein commented as he listened to Manhattan's top government lawyer and an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union, which was seeking release of the pictures.

The judge questioned whether he could disregard arguments by Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who has warned that releasing the photos would aid al-Qaida recruitment, weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against U.S. troops.

"How can I ignore the expert opinion of General Myers, who is concerned with the safety of his troops?" the judge asked. "I can't substitute my opinion for the opinion of General Myers."

He said troops in Iraq "face danger every day and don't deserve to have that danger enlarged."

The ACLU has sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes taken at the prison. The request was part of a 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends prisoner abuse is systemic.

The judge on Tuesday reduced the number of photographs at issue to 74 and the number of videos to three, saying those he excluded would have required redactions so great as to render them inconsequential. He said the pictures and videos involve a limited number of soldiers engaging in acts that were "distasteful to an extreme degree."

The judge said he recognized the pictures might be useful to the public as it answers questions about the prison scandal, including whether those in command knew about the abuse and how extensive it was.

Yet, he said, there was a "high prurient value" in the pictures.

"A judge cannot look at these without thinking to himself how quickly they'd be put on the 6 o'clock or 11 o'clock news and how easily they could be subverted to create a false picture of this country," he said.

U.S. Attorney David Kelley told the judge that insurgents and propagandists in Afghanistan and Iraq would claim that a judge's order to release the pictures was a "deliberate war act" by the U.S.

He said insurgents who already are increasing the deadliness of their attacks would claim that more pictures were being released to "rub the noses of the Muslim world" in what had happened.

ACLU lawyer Amrit Singh argued that release of the pictures was necessary for the public to assess the scope of the abuse and whether it could have been carried out without the knowledge of military leaders.

The judge did not say when he would rule, but he has indicated that a speedy decision is important so the public's right to know is not compromised.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections; US: New York; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: abughraib; abuse; aclu; hesitant; judge; photos
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1 posted on 08/30/2005 7:05:05 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
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To: NormsRevenge
ACLU lawyer Amrit Singh argued that release of the pictures was necessary for the public to assess the scope of the abuse and whether it could have been carried out without the knowledge of military leaders.

---

Who cares how many die as a result of the release?

Obviously, the ACLU could care less about that factor.

2 posted on 08/30/2005 7:06:52 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... "To remain silent when they should protest makes cowards of men." -- THOMAS JEFFERSON)
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To: NormsRevenge

Unfortunately, I fear his voiced "concerns" are just a preemptive attempt to make it appear he agonized over the decision... before he makes the expected decision to release them.


3 posted on 08/30/2005 7:08:06 PM PDT by saquin
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To: NormsRevenge

Is anyone else troubled by the fact that this National Security decision is being made by a single 'judge'?


4 posted on 08/30/2005 7:08:47 PM PDT by digger48
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To: NormsRevenge
The ACLU contends prisoner abuse is systemic.

What a bogus argument. These photos don't address that question at all, since they are the same batch of photos taken by the same group of soldiers 2 years ago. So how do they address the argument of "systemic" abuse? They don't.

5 posted on 08/30/2005 7:09:44 PM PDT by saquin
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To: NormsRevenge

Plenty of time after the war is won.

Sounds like the judge will do the right thing and sit on them.


6 posted on 08/30/2005 7:09:44 PM PDT by eddie willers
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To: NormsRevenge

I have some videos of the muslim terrorist pigs slicing off the heads of LIVE civilian prisoner slowly with the full sounds of the wheezing as blood fills the lungs as the body continues to breathe!

I have picture of LIVE American civilians falling to their deaths from the top of burning buildings! crushing into puddles of gore.

I have a suggestion for this judge and the scumbag America-hating lawyers ... unfortunately we cannot say that here.


7 posted on 08/30/2005 7:12:07 PM PDT by hombre_sincero (www.sigmaitsys.com)
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To: NormsRevenge

I can't speak for anti-American DemocRATS and ACLU sexual deviants but I think we normal people have seen enough. Anything else is overkill. The people who committed these "atrocities" (ROTFL) have been or are already being punished.


8 posted on 08/30/2005 7:13:57 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (We did not lose in Vietnam. We left.)
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To: NormsRevenge
The judge said he recognized the pictures might be useful to the public as it answers questions about the prison scandal, including whether those in command knew about the abuse and how extensive it was.

I'd really love to know how these photos would be useful to the public in showing what the command knew and how extensive the abuse was. Those are the two questions he claims the release of the photos would address. Unless there's a commander standing in the frame of the photos, they don't address the question of command knowledge. And since these are simply more photos taken from the exact same batch turned over last year that led to prosecutions, they were taken during a limited time period in the Fall of 2003 by a small number of soldiers. How do they prove "how extensive it was"?

9 posted on 08/30/2005 7:14:45 PM PDT by saquin
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To: digger48; All

Judge Alvin Hellerstein
Clinton appointee,, 1998


10 posted on 08/30/2005 7:14:45 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... "To remain silent when they should protest makes cowards of men." -- THOMAS JEFFERSON)
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To: hombre_sincero
I have some videos of the muslim terrorist pigs slicing off the heads of LIVE civilian prisoner slowly with the full sounds of the wheezing as blood fills the lungs as the body continues to breathe!

I have picture of LIVE American civilians falling to their deaths from the top of burning buildings! crushing into puddles of gore.

Well, the media doesn't feel the American public has a need to see those, y'know, because it might upset us and maybe even cause us to riot and shout "Death to Terrorists". Wouldn't want that.

11 posted on 08/30/2005 7:16:32 PM PDT by saquin
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To: NormsRevenge
The ACLU WANTS people to die because of these pictures. The loss of human life is fine with them as long as it makes the President and the US look bad.
12 posted on 08/30/2005 7:20:08 PM PDT by msnimje
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To: NormsRevenge
Judge Alvin Hellerstein Clinton appointee,, 1998

Oh $hit...

13 posted on 08/30/2005 7:20:28 PM PDT by planekT (No fence, no vote.)
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To: NormsRevenge

This judge is to be commended for showing a little common sense. I hope he cuts the ACLU off at the knees.


14 posted on 08/30/2005 7:20:55 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: NormsRevenge
Judge Alvin Hellerstein Clinton appointee,, 1998

That makes me feel sooooo much better

15 posted on 08/30/2005 7:22:23 PM PDT by digger48
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To: NormsRevenge
"A judge cannot look at these without thinking to himself how . . . easily they could be subverted to create a false picture of this country," he said.

I'm with ya so far, judge.

16 posted on 08/30/2005 7:25:05 PM PDT by Kryptonite
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To: digger48

ditto: the photo's are DOD property, and the President should tell the judge to kiss-off.


17 posted on 08/30/2005 7:28:24 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: NormsRevenge
Seeing the photos does NOTHING to determine how widespread it was.

Since one of the soldiers leaked the images initially, how are we to know that one was not a provocateur for agitprop purposes?

Sound off? Why would a solider throw his "career away"? Why did Sgt. Akbar do the same when he murdered several of his fellow officers and injured a dozen more?

Why did someone in the British Army stage some hoaxed photos for a newspaper (including a shot of a soldier urinating on a "prisoner")?

Not saying that the images from Abu Ghraib were faked, just wondering what prompted some of the action.

What went on there under our military was MINOR compared to the abuses that went on their regularly under Saddam, despite was Ted The Swimmer says. Men had their hands cut off, women were disemboweled in front of their husbands. This is a country that had rape rooms. Just what sort of men operated those torture rooms and who did they fight for? Where did they end up after the war?

"Oh Jack, you came down too hard on that Nazi when you took a picture of him with panties on his head."
18 posted on 08/30/2005 7:29:34 PM PDT by weegee (The Rovebaiting by DUAC must stop. It is nothing but a partisan witchhunt.)
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To: pierrem15

Pull a Clintonesque tactic.

Open an investigation, and refuse all questions and requests due to 'ongoing' investigation.


19 posted on 08/30/2005 7:32:27 PM PDT by digger48
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To: msnimje
The ACLU WANTS people to die because of these pictures. The loss of human life is fine with them as long as it makes the President and the US look bad.

Bingo! We have a winner.

These pictures do not assist at all in understanding the command structure, the military orders or the extensiveness of abuse. If the ACLU simply wanted that information, it would be more likely to be found in the thousands of pages of documents that they have already received through the Freedom of Information Act. Their insistence on the release of these additional photos is simply to leverage their prurient shock value to revive the scandal and embarrass the administration again. If our troops on the ground, who had nothing to do with these 2 year old events, are harmed in the process the ACLU doesn't care. In fact, they would love for riots and violence to ensue so they can point and say "see what this Bush-sanctioned abuse has caused..."

And they will probably get this judge to play right along with their cynical game.

20 posted on 08/30/2005 7:34:24 PM PDT by saquin
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