Posted on 08/24/2005 9:40:44 PM PDT by RobFromGa
But its not, I don't think taxes are immoral but I do think some are better in principle than others, and I think taxing consumption rather tan production is one such choice.
I DO think that it's immoral that government at all levels exceeds 1/3 of our economy.
Common ground is nice..
But as I've said before, to me, re-distributing how you collect it is nothing more than playing musical chairs, or rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
I can agree to that, I don't think the NSRT and the amount the government spends (except on the IRS) are connected. I do think that when a tax hike on a national sales tax is proposed dems wont be able to play the 'we only want to tax the rich' card...
That this would be passed into law and take effect without the repeal of the 16th amendment is highly repugnant.
That sounds like a moral principle..
At least I did something to design a system whereby much of that need will be eliminated. What's your contribution?
As I said, I have no problem with an NRST in principle, but the enforcement requirements in a nation that can't seem to stem the flow of illegal drugs scare me. California already exempts many goods from its sales tax and the machinations around what is "food," for example, and what isn't are amazing. What makes anybody here think that a sales tax will be any less subject to patronage, complex tweaks, byzantine accounting, and outright corruption when the difference is an automatic 25-35% advantage for your product (when state sales taxes are factored in) I don't know.
As the experience in Australia and Canada with GST confirm.
Dear N3WBI3,
"I do think some are better in principle than others, and I think taxing consumption rather tan production is one such choice...."
Well, I'm not sure. As well, at current levels of taxation, I think both are harmful.
"I do think that when a tax hike on a national sales tax is proposed dems wont be able to play the 'we only want to tax the rich' card..."
Oh, heck, that'll be easy to do for them.
"We want to only increase the NSRT on DECADENT LUXURY CARS costing OVER $50,000. We want to only increase the NSRT on MASSIVE LUXURY MANSIONS that cost over $500,000!"
Or, "We're going to raise the rate on cars, boats, and houses, but LOWER IT on FOOD and RENT!! To help the POOR!"
Or, "We're going to raise the rate on tuxedos, but lower it on Stride-Rites. It's fer the CHILRUN."
Gee, I could sit here all day and crank these out. After eight years of Mr. Clinton, it's just too easy.
Remember that it was a REPUBLICAN president who introduced a federal excise tax on luxury cars and boats.
Also remember, 20% of the American economy is a lot of money. Just because we change the method of collecting it doesn't mean that the flies and ants and wasps and other critters aren't going to stop coming to get their bit of the honey. The lobbyists will not stop coming to Washington. And there are plenty of stupid congresscritters, much more than a simple majority, who will vote to tinker with this.
And I suspect there are plenty of stupid citizens, more than enough to get the critters re-elected, who will believe, "It's fer the CHILRUN!"
"That sounds like a moral principle.."
Almost.
"We KNOW we got rid of the income tax and said we'd pass a repeal amendment when we put in the NSRT. But the budget deficit is up to $750 billion!! And we REALLY NEED to double education spending for our little ones!!
"So, it REALLY IS AN EMERGENCY, and WE REALLY DO HAVE TO REINSTATE THE INCOME TAX. But I PROMISE YOU, as sure as my name is Congressperson Ima Critter, we will ONLY TAX THE RICH!! And only A LITTLE BIT!!"
sitetest
Dear Carry_Okie,
"What makes anybody here think that a sales tax will be any less subject to patronage, complex tweaks, byzantine accounting, and outright corruption when the difference is an automatic 25-35% advantage for your product (when state sales taxes are factored in) I don't know."
Gee, whiz, Carry, didn't you read the bill???
The NRST legislation also repeals HUMAN NATURE!!!
sitetest
This post has to do with the implications of replacing the Federal income tax with a Federal flat value added tax, and everything that you posted has to do with a system that would be scrapped.Not a VAT either.Not sales tax. Period.
Don't take my word for it...Here's from the Fairtax bill (HR25)
`SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX.
`(a) In General- There is hereby imposed a tax on the use or consumption in the United States of taxable property or services.`(b) Rate-
`(1) FOR 2007- In the calendar year 2007, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for the taxable property or service.
You know the problem isn't taxes it is spending. The state and federal governments are out of control. Besides the Social Security crisis no one talks about the continued rise of Federal and State taxes. At some point x after 2020 people won't be able to pay the combined Social Security/Federal-State income taxes.
But the rise is fueled by uncontrolled spending. Spending by the Federal and State governments should be frozen where they are now.
I'd rather see new admendments to the Constitution requiring 4/5's of the house and 2/3 of the Senate required to raise spending over a certain point. No "state of emergency" garbage either for lawyers to get around.
Which is exactly the point I am trying to make, without splitting hairs between the EU definition of value added, and our sales taxes in various locales.
Therefore I'll just write "sales tax," and we are in agreement, semantics aside..
More people paying.
Workers get their pay free of federal withholding though. Is that an increase in pay? Not to me.
It just changes the timing of paying tax. Today, a portion of taxes are paid from your paycheck before you see it (withholding). Under the nrst, you pay your taxes later when you buy something.
It will certainly all shake out in the end before the bill is passed - and it will be passed since there are too many benefits to the US economy for it not to pass.
Regardless of the differences on the percent of wages taken home (or not), there is still he matter of business income taxes (and no, s-test, that is not just Subchapter C-corps but all businesses). Those cascading embedded taxes are done away with by the FairTax whether you admit it or not - and they are sizeable. Are you pretending that they do not go to lowering prices?? And the taxes ARE calculated as the amount of tax paid divided by the amount of income subject to taxes just as the example (and the IRS SOI) shows (called "tax rate" in the example) and NOT as a percent of revenue.
Keep in mind the example included only business income taxes and not employees' taxes or compliance costs. So that others can see how the embedded tax mechanism works, here's the example again using the marginal tax rate of the Subchapter C corporations that s-test insists are the only business tax payers:
LEVEL 1 2 3 4 5 6 INPUT $1.00 $1.44 $2.08 $3.01 $4.34 $6.27 33.00% PROFIT MARGIN $0.33 $0.48 $0.69 $0.99 $1.43 $2.07 34.40% TAX RATE $0.11 $0.16 $0.24 $0.34 $0.49 $0.71 SELL PRICE $1.44 $2.08 $3.01 $4.34 $6.27 $9.05 Accumulated tax costs $0.11 $0.28 $0.51 $0.86 $1.35 $2.06 Tax costs as % of 7.86% 13.31% 17.09% 19.70% 21.51% 22.77% sell price
And, oh, yes, s-test does not understand the mechanism and tries to make it out to be some sort of compilation of arriving as a sales price - that's not what's involved but instead is an insight into how income tax paid by business is embedded into prices and cascades being taxed again at the next level. Nightie also tries to warp this into something it is not.
What it is is a simple example that clearly illustrates the mechanism of cascading embedded tax costs - these are over and above tax on employees wages and over and above compliance costs.
You're the one spinning, Nightie - be a man and admit it. The discussion is not and never was "corporate" tax. That's merely what you and s-test are trying to warp things into. The discussion was always about business taxes and that encompasses far more that s-tests C-corps.
The example shows how taxes become embedded into prices - whether you like it or not.
You've got the picture - but understand that you're being attacked by a bunch of the Status Quo Lovers (aka SQLs or Squirrels) who have no tax plan to present and whose only interest is in trying to defeat the FairTax no matter what it might take.
Several of them have shown themselves clearly to be liberals and they don't give a damn about most of the country greatly benefitting from the FairTax.
Just ask one to present an alternate tax plan that is real ... and be careful for Nightie since he hypes a theoretical Flat Tax which is completely undefined and can be altered at the drop of a debating point. We call it the Nightmare Tax since it isn't real.
If you can get any of them to present their alternate plan, have them present the legislation that implements it.
BUZZZ ... wrong, s-test. The real model to support the idea of the FairTax came from an LLM in Taxation, not Dr. Jorgenson who is an economist. The model Jorgenson uses was merely analyzing aspects - economic effects - of the FairTax.
Gee, are you REALLY trying to make us believe you don't support the FairTax? Perhaps you'd present your better tax plan so we can take a look at it? AAnd tell us how it is surpassingly better than the FairTax?
The IRS is eliminated by the bill and the income tax repealed. Please read the bill:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.25:
Your chart is a pathetic joke a normal person would be ashamed of. It's not based on any reality whatsoever...
What is it s-tesst that you think all those nasty state revenooers will be chasing you around for?
Did you agree to collect and forward the sales taxes your retail customers paid and kept them instead of forwarding them as you agreed to???
That's called "theft", s-test, and I should hope they not only chase you but catch and punish you since allowing you to do that raises the tax burden on others.
Please keep it up, pigdog. I'm really enjoying this!
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