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To: Ronzo

My suggestion is to get more involved in the congregation yourself, and not to dwell so much on the (lackluster) preaching. As I was pointing out to Mister Diddy, there's more reason for being in a congregation than simply that you like the preacher's preaching.

And while I am not accusing you of this, the ancient Christians (as represented by the early Church Fathers) regarded the attitude that "I'm not getting anything out of church attendance" as an indication of the spiritual sin of Sloth, the "noonday demon," wanting more out of the community than they are willing to put in, etc.


63 posted on 08/24/2005 5:22:10 PM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: The Grammarian; Mister_Diddy_Wa_Diddy
You bring up some excellent points Gramm...

My suggestion is to get more involved in the congregation yourself, and not to dwell so much on the (lackluster) preaching. As I was pointing out to Mister Diddy, there's more reason for being in a congregation than simply that you like the preacher's preaching.

Very true...there is more to church than preaching...but I would argue it's one of those key foundation stones upon which a decent church is built. You can go without it, but not without a cost, sometimes a significant cost.

Preaching is the primary means not only of instruction, but of keeping everyone in unity, striving towards the shared goal of sanctification, and the immediate rewards that come from greater sanctification, like freedom from sinful tendencies, such as porn for instance.

Without strong, clear preaching, people simply go after there own notions about life and spirituality, and then you have a lot of opinions replacing a shared belief built upon the revelatory knowledge of God's Word. Yes, everyone can read the Bible for themselves, but not everyone is gifted in the interpretation of what they read. I have to agree with the Catholics that the Bible alone is NOT enough, that the church as an instution plays a signficant role is deciding how one should live according to the revelation of God's Word. In reality, the Protestants know this too, they just don't like to admit it.

Also, it is a FACT that every organization on earth, let alone the church, lives or dies based on the strength of it's leadership. Leadership positions have tremendous influence and authority, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, and those orgranzations with gifted leadership will always outpace those similar organizations that have only mediocre leaders. In a church scenario, one can almost always judge the strength and skill of a pastor/preacher by his ability to communicate successfully with his congregation. And one can almost always discover the spiritual temperature of a church based on the quality and substance of the pastor's sermons.

Concerning greater involvment in the congregation: this is point that hits close to home with me, as my greatest desire has been to be as much involved in church as possible, especially in the areas of prayer and adult education/spiritual formation.

However, my church as little to no opportunities in either of those areas. There are no adult educational ministries what-so-ever, no discipleship programs, no nothing. There are occasional ad-hoc groups that get together to study a particular subject, but no without the stamp of approval given by the senior leadership, a stamp of approval that is rarely given. To anyone outside a very small group of leaders.

In terms of prayer groups: I was involved in one for years, and really enjoyed getting together to pray with others about a whole host of issues. But the church leadership closed down our prayer ministry years ago, and has not replaced it with anything else. The reason it was shut-down: too many activities in the church! It was the only open prayer meeting the church had.

Other than being an usher, or running the sound board, there really isn't anything for a man to do in our church!!!

Now the woman...that's another story entirely. They have a large range of ministries to choose from, including bible studies! But all this is strictly for women ONLY. Now you know why my wife likes it so much.

And while I am not accusing you of this, the ancient Christians (as represented by the early Church Fathers) regarded the attitude that "I'm not getting anything out of church attendance" as an indication of the spiritual sin of Sloth, the "noonday demon," wanting more out of the community than they are willing to put in, etc.

Both you and the Church Fathers are painting with a very, very BROAD brush! While you may not be accusing me of it, I'm very interested in your motives for even bringing it up...

The fastest growing segment in Christianity are the "unchurched" Christians. These are people who are just fed up with the politics, stupidity, and downright irrelevance of most modern day Christian churches, especially evangelical and charismatic congregations. These people are far from lazy, and love the LORD very much...the reason they leave church is that the enviornment has little to do with God and becomes either a "bless me" club or a "don't worry, be happy!" society. Almost always the blame for the sad state of many churches can be placed solely on the shoulders of the leadership, who in turn likes to blames the "laziness" of the congregations for their own ineffectiveness. I use to do a lot of research into this phenomena, as it really seemed to be the best indicator of how apostate many churches are slowly becoming.

This apostacy is a slow process, one fueled by the neglect and ego's of leadership over a period of years. The effect is like the old bromide about the frog in hot water...except in this case the spirtual temperature is decreasing in the congregation, and the people are slowly be taken down along with it. For many Christians, leaving the church entirely is their means of defending their faith, not abandoning it!!! It's sad but true that worst enemy to the church of Christ is the church itself, whether it be Catholic or Protestant. (Or, more specicificaly, the mediocre leadership of so many churches.)

One thing I really, really HATE about my church, and many others I've been exposed too is what I call the "blame the congregation" game they play. I just HATE IT when a pastor/teacher starts riding the congregation for their short-comings, laziness, praylessness, lack of tithing, [fill in the blank...]

Of course they don't lift a finger to help these people, as that would require WORK and INVOLVEMENT and SACRIFICE on their part, which might even cut into their sermon preperation time...

Then there are those who do get involved and do all those things, but won't let anyone else help them...then they get burned out and leave the minstry, usually after destroying their family in the process.

I've also seen several very good men leave the ministry in the past year, simply because it was not worth sacrificing their families for the tremendous burdens placed upon them by the senior leadership. Many of them don't want to even be involved in church anymore, as the experience left such a bitter taste in their mouth.

As for me, let me be very blunt: I will not invest in any company, church, ministry or organization that does not give me something in return, even if that something is nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling in my gut. My home church doesn't even do that. Yet for my wife and kids, they get a warm fuzzy...so what is a man to do???

My wife fills out her spiritual "education" by listening to Moody radio and reading lots of Christian books. My kids go to Awanas sponsored by another church, so they know right from wrong, up from down, and the basics of the Faith. And for the most part, they all stay out of trouble.

But what worries me is our surrounding society...which is, much like many churches, quickly going down the big sink-hole of iniquity. If there was ever a need for a strong, bold, active church now is the time; but too many are being pulled into the gravitational orbit of the blackhole of American society...and most don't even have a clue as to what's happening.

That's why I'd like to be somewhere where the teaching and instruction is of good quality...because we desperately need it at this hour...

85 posted on 08/24/2005 10:44:33 PM PDT by Ronzo
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