SERBIA GOES BACK TO THE PAST

DER SPIEGEL ^ | August 22, 2005 | Interview

[Atlantic Bridge]

In an interview with SPIEGEL, Vldan Batic, 56, the former Serbian Justice Minister, talks about how biased the justice system still is in his troubled nation and how the shadow of former President Slobodan Milosevic continues to hover.

Even while on trial for war crimes, Milosevic may still be pulling the strings in Serbia. Slobodan Milosevic, first became president of Yugoslavia in 1989, but many say his influence is still felt. Currently, he is in the Netherlands, facing charges of war crimes at The Hague. In his first six years in power, Milosevic ignited conflicts in Croatia (1991) and Bosnia (1992) during which thousands of civilians died. In 1997, he earned international disdain when he brutally repressed Kosovo's ethnic Albanian residents. In 2000, he relinquished the presidency to Vojislav Kostunia, but only under popular pressure.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Just unbelievable.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Ping!

[Lukasz]

Eastern European ping list

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FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list ping list.

[moose2004]

I have friends in Serbia (Belgrade), I've been there several times, and 5 years after Milosovic was forced to resign this nation still has more problems than it appears it can handle. Their national debt is staggering, unemployment is between %30-%40, and underemployment is even worse. Milosovic robbed their treasury for his wars and left the nation virtually bankrupt. As you walk the streets of Belgrade you sense despair and hopelessness everyhwere. There is a steady "brain drain" with many of the young emigrating to other European countries and the US seeking a better a way of life. I believe the new President, Prime Minister and legislature mean well and truly want to reform their government and society, but it is proving to be a very difficult task. Many of the bureaucrats and judges Milosovic appointed are still in power (case and point as to why the Serbian government is only partially cooperating with the World Court and UN in "trying" to track down war criminals), and it will take many more years before they will all be tossed from office. Not to be forgotten is the mafia, their presence is everywhere, they are very powerful and they do not hesitate to use violence (the previous Prime Minister was murdered on the streets of Belgrade by the "Zemun Gang"). It's a sad situation.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Not to be forgotten is the mafia, their presence is everywhere, they are very powerful and they do not hesitate to use violence.

This is sad but true. I work as a civil engineer and architect in Germany. Last year we were building tunnels in Munich and there were lots of Serbian workers employed. As far as I know they all had to pay some protection money to their mafia. Don't ask me for the details (I did not have to pay since I am a German). Anyway I know that it was extremely dangerous for those guys to refuse.

It would be a start, if we (the west) would catch or kill Mladic and Karadzic. After this, the EU could open its borders to Serbian goods and services. If the economy gets a grip there might be some hope. We should not forget that Slovenia and Croatia, both parts of the former Yugoslavia, are doing fine.

[moose2004]

Thanks for the info. I was told by my friends that Ratko Mladic roams the country without a worry, that he has even been sighted in restaurants in Belgrade. I hope their economy does improve, they deserve it after all the misery they've been through.

[Lukasz]

Yes, it is sad to watch how Serbia ruining its potential in opposition to Croats. Slovenia it is another story cause they were isolated from the recent military conflicts.

[rasblue]

Serbs can't even get their own country in order yet they wanted to create a Greater Serbia in the Balkans. What is wrong with these people?

[Banat]

"Greater Serbia" is a convenient boogeyman pulled out whenever a foreign power needs a reason to distract us from their own dirty schemes in the Balkans.

[Banat]

After this, the EU could open its borders to Serbian goods and services.

Serbian goods are already available throughout Europe. Anyway, I don't see what Mladich and Karadzich -- citizens of Bosnia -- have to do with Serbia and its economy.

[Banat]

Everything that comes out of the mouth of Vladan Batich should be taken with a grain of salt. After all this is the guy who did absolutely nothing positive during his mandate as Justice Minister. He did, however, oversee the arrest and illegal detention of some 12,000 Serbian citizens ("Operation Sabre") in March 2004.

The mafia had them all on the payroll -- the same Zemun Gang that killd PM Djindjich...

[Atlantic Bridge]

You said:

"...Serbian goods are already available throughout Europe. Anyway, I don't see what Mladich and Karadzich -- citizens of Bosnia -- have to do with Serbia and its economy..."

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Quite a lot, since Serbia has no privileges in trading with the EU countries. As long as the Serbs hide mass murderers, they will not be accepted as a normal partners. As long as this state will last, Serbia is limited in its export possiblities.

Slovenia even managed to be a member of the EU.

[Banat]

Again, Mladich and Karadzich have had no influence on Serbia's economic relations with the world. Whether they are "mass murderers" remains to be established in a court of law (which automatically disqualifies the Hague "court").

One banal example - I can walk into a liquor store here in Canada and buy Serbian wine whenever I want to.

Serbia's "Simpo" (furniture manufacturer) has just opened a showroom in Toronto. They have offices in 40 countries and as much as 40% of their furniture is manufactured for foreign markets. Serbia is the world's largest exporter of frozen berries. The main importer? The European Union. Serbia's foreign trade deficit has been slashed by 38% compared to the same period last year. Italy's Fiat is negotiating with Zastava for a joint venture (Fiat "Punto" might soon be rolling off Serbian assembly lines in Kraguyevats). Examples are too numerous to list; these are just off the top of my head.

[moose2004]

I hope you're right about the Serbian economy improving, based on my visits and listening to my friends it has nowhere to go but up. But, I can assure you that their economy will only perform marginally at best until Kostunica and his allies finally stand up to the nationalists/socialists/communists/mafia who still control too many aspects of Serbs daily lives. This includes turning over multiple individuals wanted for war crimes, most notably Mladic and Karadic.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Serbia's "Simpo" (furniture manufacturer) has just opened a showroom in Toronto. They have offices in 40 countries and as much as 40% of their furniture is manufactured for foreign markets. Serbia is the world's largest exporter of frozen berries

That might be true, but it does not stand for a normal working economy. In fact Serbia is doing extremely bad. The Serbian GDP is as low as $26.27 billion with a population of 10.8 million people (in comparison: Croatia has a GDP of $50.33 billion with a population of 4.5 million people). Even the Albanians are a much richer nation than Serbia in the meantime! As long as Mladic and Karadzic are not killed or imprisioned in the Hague, the EU will not give Seriba the privelege to join into the free trade area inside the EU. Furthermore Serbia has to meet the fact, that all European countries see the Hague as the only court that is qualified to give Serbia's war-criminals a suitable lawsuit. It is not a decision of the Serbian people or the Serbian gouvernment. My own country, Germany, had to stand the Nuernberg trials too. It was not comfortable, but a nessecary step to enter the community of civilized nations again. Serbia has also the chance of doing so. They will be welcome and they will get help if they work up their dark history.

[Banat]

In fact Serbia is doing extremely bad. The Serbian GDP is as low as $26.27 billion...

Give it some time. Two years ago, it was only $13 billion. Inflation is under 7%, which is amazing for an emerging economy. Foreign trade is up 26% from a year ago. And this is a country that had half of its industry carpet-bombed 6 years ago, and a country that spent 10 years in economic isolation. I think Serbia's doing quite well, given the circumstances. A 6.4% growth per annum is good enough.

with a population of 10.8 million people (in comparison: Croatia has a GDP of $50.33 billion with a population of 4.5 million people).

Serbia's unimpressive economic numbers are due to Kosovo being a lawless black hole (unemployment is at about 70%!). Kosovo cannot be considered part of Serbia's economy as it is under international occupation, but the numbers you got from the CIA Factbook website don't mention that.

Even the Albanians are a much richer nation than Serbia in the meantime!

Maybe you should go to Albania and walk the streets before you draw your conclusions. Greece and Italy send Albania half a BILLION annually, to compensate for the staggering foreign trade deficit (currently at about 50% of Albania's GDP).

As long as Mladic and Karadzic are not killed or imprisioned in the Hague, the EU will not give Seriba the privelege to join into the free trade area inside the EU.

Couldn't care less for the EU membership. After all, it's the EU members who are interested in Serbian products and labour market, not vice versa. They are flocking to Serbia because Serbia has a free-trade deal with Russia (no duty). The longer Serbia stays out of the EU, the better. Again, Mladich and Karadzich are innocent until proven guilty (or have you guys in the EU ditched that principle?) in a court of law - and that ain't the one in the Hague.

Furthermore Serbia has to meet the fact, that all European countries see the Hague as the only court that is qualified to give Serbia's war-criminals a suitable lawsuit.

Again, there are no "war criminals", only suspects. The Hague Tribunal, legally, has no leg to stand on. Who and according to what law set it up? The way I see it, the Hague Tribunal is a puppet in the hands of certain powers that had bloodied their hands during the 90s. Serbian War Crimes Court is more than capable of trying any and all Serbian war crimes suspects.

It is not a decision of the Serbian people or the Serbian gouvernment.

That's why it's good to always keep an AK47 handy. You never know who's gonna be dropping by to make your own decisions for you.

My own country, Germany, had to stand the Nuernberg trials too. It was not comfortable, but a nessecary step to enter the community of civilized nations again. Serbia has also the chance of doing so. They will be welcome and they will get help if they work up their dark history.

Your country murdered 6 million Jews without so much as a blink of an eye. Add some 7-8 million others throughout Europe and Russia. Please do not compare it to Serbia, who lost 4 million men fighting -- and defeating -- Germany and your ass monkey allies on two occassions. It is an insult of the highest order to have your country compared to WWI-, pre- and WWII-era Germany. Having said that, Serbia has no "dark history". We don't build empires, we bury them.

Have a good one...

[Atlantic Bridge]

You are for sure right that Serbia has great potential, but it is completely dependent on its economic ties with the EU, since Russia obviously doesn't play a real role:

Exports - partners of Serbia:

Italy 30.1%, Germany 16.6%, Austria 7.4%, Greece 7.1%, France 5.3%, Slovenia 4.2%, US 4.1% (2004)

Imports partners of Serbia:

Germany 20.2%, Italy 18.1%, Austria 9%, Slovenia 6.1%, France 5.1%, Netherlands 4.4%, Bulgaria 4.3%, Greece 4.2% (2004)

It is up to Serbia if they will continue to be a a political paria or not. The gouvernment under Dinjic was originally a good start that ended tragically. Anyway this is the point where Serbs and Serbia should start again.

BTW - Serbia is not able to join the EU anyway, since it wouldn't be accepted. In the moment it is much too weak and much too instable for being a member inside the European family. Therefore it would be a substantial progress for Serbia if its most important partners would concede them free trade. If Serbia is not allowed to export its goods without taxes into the EU, it will stay the world's largest exporter of frozen berries (sarcasm). As I already said - Serbia has great potential (no sarcasm) but they still waste time and a huge amount of money with their patriotic BS. If they continue, nobody will give them the chance that they are in need so badly.

P.S. There is no doubt that the "amount" of guilt between Nazi-Germany and Milosewic-Serbia is not comparable. Both countries are completely different, the circumstances were different and the dimension was different. Nevertheless there is also no doubt, that Serbs and Serbia is guilty in genocide, murder, mass raping, expulsion and violence in numerous occaisions. Furthermore it is clear that the individual guilt of some Serbian war-criminals is on the same level as the guilt of their Nazi colleagues. Therefore it is neccesary, that guilty criminals have to pay. I doubt that this could happen in front of Serbian courts, since they are obviously biased. It will be a cleaning for all those spotless and singlehearted Serbian people, who have nothing to do with such crimes. They need the chance to get rid of this kind of scum.

The only solution where Serbia does not lose its face is to kill Mladic and Karadzic fast. No EU-legislation, but a littlebit justice for all those victims of Serbia.

[pythagorean]

You are well-meaning, but this Spiegel article, as many other Serb-bashing ones, are poor in fact and rich in propagandistic allegations. In a honest world, the more serious an allegation, the higher the burden of proof should be, but this is routinely violated. The most serious allegation routinely hurled against Serbs is "genocide", refering largely to Srebrenica. You apparently adopt the allegation: "…there is also no doubt, that Serbs and Serbia is guilty in genocide, …". But hard facts conclusively refuting this allegation can be found in the comprehensive, yet easy to read, report of the Srebrenica Research Group (if your time is limited, go to the Conclusions). Please read it and draw your own conclusions.

[getoffmylawn]

Great post. I miss your input when it's not around.

The whole "Karadzic and Mladic must pay" thing is a great accomplishment of the "Serbs are demons" machine. Their souls may be black, but ya gotta hand it to them for their persistence. It seems to have really payed off.

[Banat]

Thanks. :-) But statements like this one:

Nevertheless there is also no doubt, that Serbs and Serbia is guilty in genocide, murder, mass raping, expulsion and violence in numerous occaisions.

just get my blood boiling. Not because I'm "in denial," but because I think you can't blame a whole nation/country for alleged crimes obviously committed by individuals. I don't care in whose name they were committed - not in mine, that's for sure. The mass media houses have no business "determining" that, either. But that's what they keep doing. AtlanticBridge is just parroting the tired propaganda...

I never encouraged any of these people to go out and kill. I never rooted for them to commit as many crimes as possible. However, if I am forced to choose between them and the Hague "tribunal," then, obviously, I am going to take their side. Why? Because The Hague wants to try THEM, but sentence the whole Serbian nation. I don't want my great-grandchildren to be stuck with war reparations. What have they done to deserve that?

Had the Hague had an evenhanded approach, it would be much easier to resolve these issues and leave the past behind once and for all.

And then he goes on to compare Serbia with Nazi Germany! That's just plain insane.