You know, you're just wrong on this. Every report related basically the same progress of events, and the video confirms it.
Do you not recall the information that the shots through the wall, at the guys on the roof, were from a .50 cal machine gun? BATF didn't have a gun like that. I suppose you think the Davidians always had someone sitting there behind the MG, facing the wall, ready to blow away intruders on the roof, whomever it might be?
I never heard the dog story, and challenge you on this point to provide your source. If the dogs were penned, as you say, why shoot them? That gunfire would tip off the Davidians, and those raiders believed they had surprise on their side. And shooting the dogs to stop their barking is just simply stupid....the dogs barking eliminated the surprise element.
The dogs were undoubtedly considered in the raid plan, and they would have been shot in the case that they posed a threat to the raiders.
The investigation determined (something like this) that the raid team leader and others tried to breach the front door, only got it open a few inches because of barricades, etc, and during that moment, Koresh and others opened up on them. Fire was returned as the agents retreated. I think two agents were killed, one at the front door, and the other on the roof. The report surmised that the shooting at the front door set the roof events in motion.
Barricaded front door, with automatic rifles right there? A .50 Cal MG waiting in ambush upstairs? And, still, you think they should have knocked? Is your claim that if they'd knocked, the Davidians would have cooperated and submitted to the federal warrants for weapons violations?
If these are your conclusions, they are, indeed, asinine.
You may be a little young and immature, IMO, to make intelligent posts on FR. Do you know that you are the ONLY poster who calls the BATFE agents "BATFAGS"? That's truly an impressive way of making your case, and all of us marvel at your diction. /sarc Do you realize that you're at FR, and not some Counter-Strike forum?
It's way over your head here, young man.
I don't know where you got your information on Waco but if you think the dribble you posted is what really happened there you've got your head so far up your ass you'll never see daylight again.
I suggest you do a lot more research and a lot more reading on the subject before pretending you know anything that happened at Waco.
You can start by searching this forum. I'm sure the many posts made are still in the archives.
Eyes
Where the heck are you getting your information? Your info is 180 out from every report, book and article I have read.
You may be a little young and immature, IMO, to make intelligent posts on FR. Do you know that you are the ONLY poster who calls the BATFE agents "BATFAGS"?
The investigation determined (something like this) that the raid team leader and others tried to breach the front door, only got it open a few inches because of barricades, etc, and during that moment, Koresh and others opened up on them. Fire was returned as the agents retreated. I think two agents were killed, one at the front door, and the other on the roof. The report surmised that the shooting at the front door set the roof events in motion.
Kind of odd, isn't it, that surviving photos and the testimony of the surviving outside witnesses all indicate that the bullet holes on the metal door all went INWARD, not OUTWARD?
Of course, we'll never be sure, because somewhere between Waco and Washington, the feds "lost" the front door. Yes, they "lost it." A steel door, a key piece of evidence, photographed being taken from the ashes. The feds "lost" it.
You make me laugh. You're pathetic.
So if you don't like seeing your precious JBTs being called BATFAGs, tough.
BATFags is a very common term here on FR and rightfully so.
Their attorney succesfully argued that the Fedgoons were killed in self defense. Not one single Davidian was convicted of killing anyone.
IMO, they should have wasted them all instead of allowing that stupid 'ceasefire' that resulted in the FBI murdering a bunch of women and kids.
L
Nope, neither did the whackos, and the shots weren't from a .50.
I never heard the dog story, and challenge you on this point to provide your source.
I wasn't the poster you addressed, but as I made the same point on the dogs, my source was Ashes of Waco (a rather calm and reasoned book). See also here: http://www.hardylaw.net/dogs.html
Money quote:
Q. .... How many dogs did the ATF shoot out there that day?A. There were five, the mother and four pups.
Q. Okay. And they were--were they all shot?
A. Yes.
That same link includes two named ATF agents' confession to shooting dogs, although they admit neither firing first nor shooting puppies.
Both sides of this dispute routinely lie, so I am always leery of stuff on the net. It's pretty clear that Waco was not the finest hour of law enforcement. But the FBI made even more of a mess of things than the AFT -- which took some doing.
The FBI in the nineties had it come out that the top guy in counterintelligence worked twenty years for the Russians, the #2 guy worked twenty years for the Chinese, his assistant assisted him (and the two spies for China walked), and the whole Boston Field Office went over to the freaking Mafia and used to tip them about informers so the informers could be whacked.
This stuff never used to happen to Robert Stack or Efrem Zimbalist Jr...
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
There were NO Davidian-owned .50 cal machine guns or ANY machine guns, PERIOD. The automatic and suppressed weapons were all brought by the BATFags, one of the most truly evil and useless (along with DEA) of ANY FedGov agency. When Koresh opened the door, getting ready to invite them in, he was shot without warning and his toddlet/infant daughter was killed in his arms. I guess, though, that drinking the FedGov Koolaid is your thing, so more power to you.
The Davidians absolutely had no .50 cal machine guns, and I challenge you to point me to any official link that says otherwise.
There was a Barret or Barret type .50, most certainly not a machine gun. (BTW, a very legal .50 to own)
Getting a little tough to defend the ATF, isn't it? .50 caliber machine gun?? Sorry Randi, no illegal weapons were found in the ashes, so stop lying. Using tanks and flamethrowers against women and childres is hard to defend, but getting snotty with posters you disagree with doesn't help, nor does your pseudo-intellectual, smarter-than-you attitude.
You think they considered the dogs but not the machine guns and .50 BMG rifles which thay claimed justified their raid?