NYT: 121 are Killed as Jet Crashes Outside Athens - The investigation into causes begins

New York Times ^ | August 15, 2005 | ANTHEE CARASSAVA and IAN FISHER

[TexasCajun]

shoddy maintenance by a third-rate discount airline.

That's the 1st thing I thought.

Those maint. records will be scrubbed cleaner than John Kerry's discharge.

[leadpenny]

I posted this a few minutes ago on another thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1463039/posts?page=264#264

All aboard the Payne Stewart plane were frozen solid also.

Because the cockpit and pax oxygen systems are separate, to me it seems very possible that there was a failure of the pressurization system (which also provides heat for the airplane). The pax masks dropped down and worked. For some reason the cockpit oxygen system didn't work. The pilots had only a few seconds to get oxygen before they lost consciousness. They didn't make it. This would explain the pax being alive a bit longer than the pilots. Ambient temps at FL 350 were probably way below 0 celius. But, really, I don't know.

[jwpjr]

Why would some crew/passengers be frozen solid, but others still moving around the cockpit as reported by the pilots who intercepted the aircraft?

Truth is, almost every report that comes out in the first few days can be discounted as pure speculation, some of it well-intentioned, but speculative nevertheless.

If there was indeed depressurization at 30,000 feet or so how did the plane descend to the 10,000 feet where it collided with the ground?

Hopefully the flight data and cockpit voice recorders will provide some helpful info.

this will be an interesting one.

[MurryMom]

Did anyone blame Bush yet?

LOL! You really meant "Did anyone blame Clinton yet?", didn't you?

[synchem]

"Maybe they don't supply enough O2 flow if the cabin pressure is above 30,000 feet?"

Open a bottle of seltzer? you get bubbles. I recall from my AF Aircrew training at 30,000 ft one needs pressurized oxygen forced in the lungs otherwise the oxygen "boils" out of the blood. Passenger oxygen is not under such positive pressure. In fact the oxygen masks are designed to dilute the oxygen (plastic bag).

[Nov3]

I can believe the passengers froze to death, i.e. died of hypothermia, but if they're frozen SOLID it's time to call in Agent Mulder and Dr. Who to investigate.

Amen

[Nov3]

Open a bottle of seltzer? you get bubbles. I recall from my AF Aircrew training at 30,000 ft one needs pressurized oxygen forced in the lungs otherwise the oxygen "boils" out of the blood. Passenger oxygen is not under such positive pressure. In fact the oxygen masks are designed to dilute the oxygen (plastic bag).

Maybe at 300,000 feet.

[Nov3]

Not necessarily, I think. If the heat system to the cabin failed, the temperature in the cabin would drop very fast, epecially if the pressurization ws still operating.

IIRC The heat and pressure systems are inter-related - heat of compression - if the pressure system fails - no heat.

[expatpat]

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe the temperature is maintained by heat from either the APU or one of the engines. The pressurization and the temperature control are part of the same system, but have some failure modes that are different.

[Paleo Conservative]

If you want on or off my aerospace ping list, please contact me by Freep mail not by posting to this thread.

[RightWhale]

Is that Alexander's mug peering out from the tail section?

[Paleo Conservative]

With all the sophisticated systems on board aircraft these days, why can't the avionics detect whether or not the pilots are conscious? The plane could then descend to 10,000 feet and possibly even be programmed to land itself at an airport.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

" Those maint. records will be scrubbed cleaner than John Kerry's discharge. " ..... just like what Sandy Burger tried to do with those documents.... and the whole Able Danger scandal.

[Sacajaweau]

By their own admission, this is obviously a strange event. One article says the oxygen masks were hanging in the cockpit??? so why didn't the pilots put them on??

I'd be most interested in the blood tests...and the unit that sent the text message. The message was sent minutes before the crash. There were no other messages or phone calls? The F-16's were with the plane for 45 minutes. Lotsa questions!!

[sheik yerbouty]

"Nothing to see here...move along.."

[NavyCanDo]

Aft Pressure Bulkhead failure???? The older 737's were retrofited because of known cracking in the pressure domes. That could explain the rapid decompression when no visible signs of skin failure were seen. But still- the audio alarms should of alerted the crew in time to put on their O2 mask and follow procedures they have practiced countless times.

Very strange.

[Yo-Yo]

The cockpit oxygen system is supplied by a small liquid oxygen tank mounted in the aircraft that is serviced by the ground crew. If this was not properly serviced, then there would be no oxygen for the pilots.

The passenger oxygen system consists of small canisters in the overhead bin that actually burn a chemical to produce oxygen (it was the improper storage of such canisters in the cargo hold of a ValuJet that caused it to burn and crash into the everglades in 1996.)

The Flight Attendants have portable oxygen bottles that they can wear while walking up and down the isles. This is separate from the Pilot and the Passenger oxygen sources.

Cabin pressurization and heating are both derrived from bypass air from the engine's compressor stage. You lose the compressed air, you lose the heat source.

My question is was this aircraft equipped with a reinforced cockpit door, such that the flight attendants could not get into the cockpit quickly enough to provide the aircrew with an alternate oxygen source?

[Yo-Yo]

Is that Alexander's mug peering out from the tail section?

It is Helios, Greek god of the Sun.

[freeperfromnj]

The F-16's were with the plane for 45 minutes. Lotsa questions!!

Thanks for posting that piece of info. I didn't realize it was that long.

[RightWhale]

So it is. Tnx.