Posted on 08/14/2005 1:25:44 PM PDT by adam_az
Edited on 08/14/2005 1:28:27 PM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Live thread for posting breaking news about the Gaza Explulsion which is set to begin within the hour...
This is what I'm wondering about also. I think a lot depends on the IDF. If the soldiers tonight/tomorrow can Force the Jews into their Yellow Cages (I can't believe this is happening while the world slumbers on) then perhaps the terrorists will wait for a few days until they are in place there before beginning their new "24/7 Terror in Tel Aviv" program. BUT, I fear that IF the soldiers have a hard time of this, then the terrorists might get too restless, and go for the kill now. Sorry to be so blunt, but to hell with the civilities! Going for the kill is exactly what this is.......it is all a question of when. You notice, if you've seen some of my news posts, that there are still terror attacks going on in the Gush.
IIRC, this was agreed to by both sides. The Palestinians are required to tear these homes down. They probably would have preferred to put their own people into them, actually.
Many young men were hauled off, shouting out to the police as they were dragged away, "A Jew does not expel a Jew!"
Where did that pic come from, eh? NOT from Gaza! That is nothing but a GARBAGE DUMP according to some. LOOK AT THAT GORGEOUS HOUSE!!!
“You point focuses on the tactical…”
Absolutely, but you made the same point repeatedly -- that now Israel was free to bomb by air. The strategic considerations are mixed. You are correct about consolidating one’s position and resources, but some of that gain is wiped out by losses in having to defend against air strikes into the heart of Israel by Palestinians in Gaza and in loss of supervision of the Philadelphi Route.
“Israel has much more justification for responding to attacks from a hostile non-occupied neighbor than for responding to attacks from an occupied population fighting that occupation.”
I don’t think it will work that way. The justification was always there. Who else but Israel would be asked, has been asked, to put up with this level of constant terror? Who else but Israel would be vilified for creation of a fence to protect them from death? Had any other country come up with this pacifist solution they would have been lauded as the next Ghandi.
Nevertheless the Palestinians will spin this to a willing world as they are still “occupied” because of West bank, Jerusalem , no army, no navy, no open borders, no this or that. Don’t underestimate the power of their propaganda. Look where it’s gotten them so far – incredible legitimacy for a world terror apparatus, the universal use of the term “occupied territories for land gained in a defensive war, forgotten meaning of UN Resolution 242 meant to protect Israel, Arafat at the UN as a representative of a unique state without a state, unique position of Palestinian “refugees” throughout multiple generations, UNRWA is another one of a kind, Nobel prize to a terrorist, billions in stolen money and more coming, arms to terrorists supplied by the CIA, unprecedented return of land, etc.
The comparison to Hanson was a compliment. He is a military historian I greatly admire. He too defended strategic retreat.
They would have AK-47 Monkey Jumped on the rooftops. The teardowns were aimed at preventing that.
“Did I say anything at all about "warring"?
Did I give any justification or reason?
Did what I wrote not include everything down to "The Nazis did it because they were evil bastards and they just felt like doing it"?
If you prefer another example without any modern sensitivities how about:
Extermination……………The Athenian's choice with the Melians during the Peloponnesian War.
Look it up.”
………………………….
Not to pick, but your comments certainly do include European Jews pre-WW2 as a "conquered," "hostile" group who had to be dealt with in some way by the "conquering" Germans. That was not at all the situation as I'm sure you know. Jews were citizens of various countries and were singled out for racist purposes not because they were disruptive of the society or violent or could not live in peace in the same society as non-Jewish citizens.
Your words --
"In the end, when you capture a hostile population, you need to either assimilate them (as America did with the Indians), enslave them (as the Spartans did to the Helots), exterminate them (as the Nazis tried to do), reform them (as the U.S. did with Japan and Germany) or, if none of those options apply, emasculate them, isolate them from you and let them stew in their own juices (as Israel is now about to do.)" (#387)
and
"Throughout history, whenever a population has been conquered through war, the choices have been:
1. Extermination……………Nazi Germany’s choice with the Jews
2. Expulsion………………..The Soviet Union’s choice with the conquered Germans in East Prussia.
3. Reformation……………..The United States’ choice with the conquered Nazi Germany.
4. Assimilation……………..The United States’ choice with the American Indian
5. Perpetual Occupation……The choice that has failed every single European colonial power faced with occupying a hostile population." (#664)
………………………………..
I am sure you were making a rhetorical point, but to those who are still grieved by the losses of the Holocaust, and who are newly sensitive to the constant comparison of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to Nazis, your example lumps the "Jewish Problem" of pre-WW2 Europe as like in kind to the Palestinian problem of suicide killers. They are nothing the same. You are either giving legitimacy to the Nazi “final solution” or delegitimizing the Israeli problem with the Palestinians.
I doubt that you intended either. Please pick a different example.
Smoke from burning tires set alight by Jewish settlers could be seen behind the wall separating the Neve Dekalim settlement from the Palestinian town of Khan Younis in the southern Gaza Strip. we can see the Palis standard of living....6th century donkey cart....
Let's not forget the requirement that the victim of the terrorism supply weapons to the terrorists that immediately disappear with no accounting, and now they are supposed to give more. And also money and city lights, water, power, and garbage pickup. Maybe they don't have to do that anymore.
No, there was some early discussion of their disposition, and the PA requested they be torn down. They want to build high rises.
well, its from the NY Times.
I suppose the Palis are going to tear anything "Jewish" down anyway??
I doubt the authenticity of that photo. The actual destruction is being done by the IDF, not the PA, and hasn’t started. Also, that home looks more like the “free style” designs in the “refugee camps”. I wouldn’t be shocked if that’s a pic of a terrorist’s home being demolished.
"I've never understood why a high chickenwire fence wasn't put on top of the wall to protect the worshippers below."
Therein lies your problem. You don't seem to understand the Muslim mind at work.
Can you understand why the Muslims threw a fit and threatened mass violence when Israel wanted to shore up the Western Wall and their holy site from disintegrating?
When PM Sharon, an Israeli minister, merely visited Judaism's holiest site in the Jewish Holiest Days, the Intifada broke out.
The collective tin foiled mind of the Palis/Muslims - AIDS in water, Arafat poisoned, Jews use blood for Matzoh, Elders of Zion, Israel stealing Iranian eyes, Mossad behind attacks on WTC, Sharm Sheik, Saudi Arabia in cahoots with Al Qaeda, etc, do not lend themself to logical solutions.
What was that Kinks song -- Paranoia will destroy ya.
I suspect these won't do any better.
I automatically position a bullseye on their balaclavas. Damn them all to hell, and let loose the dogs of war...
Well, if you want to be angry and weep at the same time, go to Yahoo News and find the pictures...
More than half of Gaza evacuees hold fast as forcible evacuation due to start Wednesday, Aug. 17
August 16, 2005, 10:19 PM (GMT+02:00)
DEBKAfile’s military sources: Days One and Two of the evacuation of 21 Gaza Strip communities were more of a major psycho-drama staged by Israeli soldiers and police rather than a real test of strength. The forcible evacuations are due to begin Wednesday, August 16
Till now, television viewers in Israel and overseas were treated to the sight of one of the finest armies in the world sawing through the iron gate of Neve Dekalim, the main Gush Katif community, and weeping along with their victims.
Agonizing human encounters flashing across their screens almost around the clock dulled Israeli minds and damped down awkward questions. Commentators labeled two blazing garbage containers as “signaling a violent clash”. Next, came low shots of container trailers rolling past scuffling crowds. Not surprisingly, no one was hurt, although 50 young activists were detained.
The scenes bore the hallmarks of professional mass media directors and behavioral psychologists working for maximum effect.
The container trucks’ use as props in the central Neve Dekalim scenario may explain why families standing outside their homes with all their belongings in neighboring communities waited in vain in torrid temperatures for the containers to pick them up.
Then at prime TV time, IST 20:00, General Dan Harel, commander of the pull-out operation gave the order to lines of soldiers to move into Neve Dekalim for another house-to-house attempt to persuade people to leave before they are dragged out starting from Wednesday morning. They were also warned they would lose one-third of the compensation due to voluntary evacuees, although quite a few had never bothered to apply.
Rumors raised the pitch of suspense as to which communities would be first tacked Wednesday, depending on the defense minister’s decision Tuesday midnight.
Some families had quietly driven out in cars and trucks flying Israeli flags and the names of the communities they had left for good. Others prayed for a miracle. Many congregated for the last time in the Neve Dekalim synagogue, where it is feared they may barricade themselves for a last stand. Half Elei Sinai families were packed for departure when they discovered their neighbors sent to an Ashkelon hotel had been turned away for lack of vacancies. They then refused to leave without a fixed destination as a community, as they had been promised.
After the big show, Israeli soldiers and policemen now have to show whether they are capable of undertaking the real ordeal ahead of forcibly evicting compatriots from their homes.
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