Umpire reprimanded by Little League (Update)

Reuters ^ | 8-1-2005

[Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)]

dual lingual?

[Polybius]

If you don't think there's a difference between hand signals and being able to talk in full sentances with no one knowing what you're saying I'd be glad to see that tested in the field, one team with hand signals, one with exclusive knowledge of a full language the other team knows nothing of.

Discussing baseball with you is like discussing chess with someone who is still trying to figure that "the horse jumps two squares forward and one square sideways".

Secrecy is PART of baseball.

The other team is not supposed to know what you are saying.

If the manager wants to be "able to talk to his pitcher in full sentances with no one knowing what he's saying" , all the manager has to do is call time out and have a long and boring discussion at the pitcher's mound.

That, however, slows down the game and irritates the fans.

The alternative is to use hand singnal, foot signals, semaphore, or having his translater shout out something in Japanese to his Japanese pitcher, Hideo Nomo.

Any method of secret communication is fair game.

[kharaku]

So I suppose by your logic since the pros use steroids, we aught to inject toddlers right? Anything to win?

[Polybius]

So I suppose by your logic since the pros use steroids, we aught to inject toddlers right? Anything to win?

That's an extremely silly non sequitur.

Allowing secret communication between the players in baseball is as much of a part of the established rules of baseball as using a glove to catch the ball.

Whether it be in the Major Leagues, Minor Leagues, College Leagues, High School or Little Leagues, a manager can call time out and have a conference at the pitcher's mound with the entire team.

That is not doing "anything to win".

That is playing baseball by the established rules of baseball the way baseball has been played for over a century.

I withdraw my previous chess analogy. It was way too generous.

Discussing baseball with you is actually like discussing chess with someone that argues with you that it is not fair that major pieces can go forewords and backwards but that pawns may only go forward.

[kharaku]

Hardly you even felt the need to show a pro ball stadium. I suspect you endorse 10 year old chewing tabacky also. Look as I already posted if everyone agrees ahead of time, sure let them speak Spanish, but your justification just doesn't hold water. Baseball should be about hitting and running not secret code.

[Polybius]

Hardly you even felt the need to show a pro ball stadium.

Ummmm........Could you please translate that incoherent sentence into understandable English?

I suspect you endorse 10 year old chewing tabacky also.

Another, ludicrous non sequitur.

Look as I already posted if everyone agrees ahead of time, sure let them speak Spanish, but your justification just doesn't hold water. Baseball should be about hitting and running not secret code.

That makes as much sense as agreeing ahead of time what flavor of Gator-Aide they will be allowed to drink and saying that football should be about passing and running and not about talking secretly in the huddle.

It is obvious that you know as much about baseball as I know about landing a Boeing 747.

Baseball is about hitting and running..........and also about secret signals between the catcher and pitcher about what the next pitch will be, and secret signals from the club house to the runner about when to try to steal a base, and secret communications between the manager and the rest of the team at the pitcher's mound when the manager wants to call time out for such a conference or by whatever other method of communication the manager dreams up.

That is as much a part of "Baseball" as is the secret huddle in football.

Those are the Rules of Baseball.

That is why the Umpire was suspended. Because he improperly disallowed something that the Rules of Baseball allows, namely, secret communication.

If you want to have a game that disallows secret communication, fine. Make up your own rules and call the new game "Kharaku-Ball".

You can then announce over the speaker system before each pitch:

"Ladies and gentlemen and players, the pitcher has signaled to the catcher that his next pitch will be a fastball, high and inside."

It doesn't matter what you think baseball should be about.

Baseball is about what baseball is about and secret communication is an integral part of the game of baseball and has been for over a century.

[Eagles Talon IV]

If the "2 visits to the pitcher" rule is in effect then in fact they ARE violating the rules. Your comment "thems the breaks" indicates a lack of knowledge about how sports rules are formulated and enforced.

[Eagles Talon IV]

Well, it seems it is you that has become sidetracked by referencing other then the topic at hand. I was merely addressing your comment. In any case the original point was that I believe the umpire was wrongly disciplined since he went to his supervisor with the question and was given the ok. He id exactly as he should have done and should bear no penalty. It is the supervisor who assumes the total blame. if any actually exists, which I also dispute.

I think perhaps you have little to no experience with how organizational responsibility works.

[Sloth]

I suppose I'm old fashioned in that I like the way IT USED TO BE. To become a citizen you HAD to be able to speak the language.

Jeez, I'm glad it's not that tough anymore. I didn't even learn to talk until a year or two after I became a citizen.

[Eagles Talon IV]

"Your last point (about Spanish speaking players playing here need to learn the language) makes me wonder if your issue really has anything to do with baseball, or whether this is about something else.

It's not about anything else. On the field of play no team can have an advantage that is not available to another team in the normal course of playing the game.

[Sloth]

Correct and no team shall have any advantage over another except in physical ability.

Where is the rule prohibiting players from having knowledge or experience that others lack?

[Stu Cohen]

Little league umpries don't make much money anyway.

I don't see this guy losing any sleep over it.

He did the right thing. Speak the freakin' language already.

I could speak English when I was 2 years old. If your in this country, crack open an English book already.

[MudSlide]

Maybe a translator should be assigned to each dugout.

Or the coach could have head phones on like the UN

And if it is like the UN maybe the ref could be taking some oil for food or make that strikes for payola..

[Eagles Talon IV]

You are making this far more complicated then it should be. The rule in place is that a coach may only visit the pitcher 1 time. On the 2nd visit he MUST remove the pitcher. Now then, if the coach, by using means UNAVAILABLE to the other team can circumvent this rule then they may not use those means. If the coach wanted to use sign language then fine, both teams can do this. If a method of communication is used by one team then it must be able to be used by the other in the normal course of the game.

Another example. In the majors and probably the minor leagues as well, there are phones linking the dugout with the bull pen. If the phone in either dugout becomes inoperative and the bull pen cannot be contacted in that way then the other team must cease using the phone as well. That is the rule, agree with it or not but at all times no team may have an advantage not available to the other team in the normal course of the game.

[Sloth]

If the coach wanted to use sign language then fine, both teams can do this.

So, if one team was comprised of deaf kids, would it be OK for the coach to instruct them from the sidelines with full sentences in American Sign Language (which is legally considered a separate language from English)?

In any case, you're wrong. The coach was *not* using means unavailable to the other team. There is nothing stopping anyone on either team from speaking Spanish, English, ASL, Swahili, Esperanto or Tagalog -- aside from an ump who apparently doesn't know the rules.

[dmz]

Lance Van Auken, a spokesman for Little League International, said in a statement, "The umpire made an incorrect decision, for which there was no basis in the Rules and Regulations of Little League."

___________

I guess the rules disagree with you on this point, as the spokesperson for Little League International notes.

[in the Arena]

Coaches regularly send "coded" hand signals to the base runners...no different than speaking a foreign language...infact, in this day, it's quite likely that some members of the other team also speak Spanish...