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To: zipper
...the demeaning of one of the greatest Generals of the Civil War (or perhaps THE greatest according to Robert E. Lee) Nathan Bedford Forrest.

He was an effective general, for sure, but "great" implies more than good, and Forrest was a ruthless slave trader who executed surrendering negro Union soldiers at Fort Pillow. He was a very bad man -- not a "great" general at all, and no one should be surprised that the decendants of the people he treated so brutally should desire to remove any place of honor bestowed on him or his remains.

14 posted on 07/27/2005 3:22:48 AM PDT by ravinson
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To: ravinson
You seem to ignore the fact that this country was in a civil war. You can not rewrite history, and just maybe these memorials can be a reminder not to repeat history.

Nathan Bedford Forrest did not subscribe to the treatment of blacks by the KKK and denounced their crimes.

Also you do not live in Memphis, and do not understand that Black politicians want a White free society here.
16 posted on 07/27/2005 5:12:46 AM PDT by Coldwater Creek ("Over there, Over there, we will be there until it is Over there.")
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To: ravinson

Forrest was "ruthless" exactly how?

Yes, he traded slaves. For those to whom this is all that matters, well, this is all that matters.

But since you call him a "ruthless" slave trader, you are at least pretending to say more.

So what, exactly, is your additional implication?


17 posted on 07/27/2005 5:35:17 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: ravinson
...who executed surrendering negro Union soldiers at Fort Pillow.

This is far from an objectively established fact. The Union forces suffered a defeat at the hands of Forrest's forces, to be sure. But whether any were executed is, to my estimation, unknowable to us.

18 posted on 07/27/2005 5:40:51 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: ravinson

Shove it up your
Yankee Ass. Forest was a great man.


20 posted on 07/27/2005 5:58:58 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: ravinson
Regarding his military abilities:

Forrest was one of the first men, if not the first, to grasp the doctrines of " (Click link for more info and facts about mobile warfare) mobile warfare" that became prevalent in the  (Click link for more info and facts about 20th century) 20th century. His one directive to his men was to "get there firstest with the mostest", even if it meant pushing his horses at a killing pace, which he did more than once. One report states that Forrest led a mounted cavalry of 2500 troops 100 miles in only two days. (*) A total of 29 horses were shot out from under him.

Forrest's victory at Brice's Cross Roads became the subject of a class taught at the French War College by Marshal  (Click link for more info and facts about Ferdinand Foch) Ferdinand Foch before  (A war between the allies (Russia, France, British Empire, Italy, United States, Japan, Rumania, Serbia, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, Montenegro) and the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey, Bulgaria) from 1914 to 1918) World War I, and his mobile campaigns were studied by the  (A person of German nationality) German general  (German field marshal noted for brilliant generalship in North Africa during World War II (1891-1944)) Erwin Rommel, who as commander of the  (Click link for more info and facts about Afrika Korps) Afrika Korps in  (A war between the Allies (Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, India, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherl) World War II emulated his tactics on a wider scale, with tanks and trucks.

Shortly after the war, Lee was asked to identify the best soldier he ever commanded. Although Forrest only came under his command in the last month of the war, when Lee became overall Confederate commander, Lee replied: "A man I have never met, sir. His name is Forrest."

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/n/na/nathan_bedford_forrest.htm




23 posted on 07/27/2005 7:19:09 AM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: ravinson
Regarding the "atrocities" you mention-- does the second passage in italics below sound like the same man? 

Even if your allegations have some merit, does this justify the actions taken? Is there any evidence of a debate in the Memphis media over General Forrest's military record? Was there a proper military investigation to document these allegations? You seem to be falling down the same slippery slope as the Thomas Jefferson detractors and others-- the mere fact they ever owned slaves is enough to impugn their legacy. And even worse-- the mere allegation of an improper act is enough for the politically-correct crowd to whip up hysteria.

The fact is, General Forrest is only remembered by the PC crowd for his involvement with the KKK, not for the allegations you mention. That legacy is best addressed here:

Embittered by the state of his homeland after the war, in May 1866, Forrest became "Grand Wizard" of the  (A secret society of white Southerners in the United States; was formed in the 19th century to resist the emancipation of slaves; used terrorist tactics to suppress Black people) Ku Klux Klan, an organization of Confederate veterans. Because of Forrest's prominence, the organization grew rapidly under his  (The activity of leading) leadership. In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war, many members of the new group began to use force to oppose the extension of voting rights to blacks, and to resist  (The activity of constructing something again) Reconstruction-introduced measures for the ending of segregation. In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics, ordered the Klan to disband. However, many of its groups in other parts of the country ignored the order and continued to function.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/n/na/nathan_bedford_forrest.htm

---------------

July 4, 1875

Memphis, Tennessee

Source "Black Southerners in Gray" - edited by Richard Rollins, Rank and File, 1994.

"Nathan Bedford Forrest was invited to speak by the Jubilee of Pole Bearers, a political and social organization in the post-war era comprised of Black Southerners. Miss Lou Lewis was introduced to General Forrest then presented him with a bouquet of flowers and said: 'Mr. Forrest - allow me to present you this bouquet as a token, of reconciliation, an offering of peace and good will.'

"General Forrest received the flower with a bow, and replied: To the General Forrest Tribute Website

'Miss Lewis, ladies and gentlemen - I accept these flowers as a token of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the South. I accept them more particularly, since they come from a lady, for if there is any one on God’s great earth who loves the ladies, it is myself. This is a proud day for me. Having occupied the position I have for thirteen years, and being misunderstood by the colored race, I take this occasion to say that I am your friend. I am here as the representative of the Southern people - one that has been more maligned than any other. I assure you that every man who was in the Confederate army is your friend. We were born on same soil, breathe the same air, live in the same land, and why should we not be brothers and sisters.

When the war broke out I believed it to be my duty to fight for my country, and I did so. I came here with the jeers and sneers of a few white people, who did not think it right. I think it is right, and will do all I can to bring about harmony, peace and unity. I want to elevate every man, and to see you take your places in your shops, stores and but I want you to do as I do - go to the polls and select the best men to vote for. I feel that you are free men, I am a free man, and we can do as we please. I came here as a friend and whenever I can serve any of you I will do so. We have one Union, one flag, one country; therefore, let us stand together. Although we differ in color, we should not differ in sentiment. Many things have been said in regard to myself, and many reports circulated, which may perhaps be believed by some of you, but there are many around me who can contradict them. I have been many times in the heat of battle - oftener, perhaps, than any within the sound of my voice. Men have come to me to ask for quarter, both black and white, and I have shielded them. Do your duty as citizens, and if any are oppressed, I will be your friend. I thank you for the flowers, and assure you that I am with you in heart and hand.'"

The Memphis Daily Avalanche reported this event on July 6, 1875.

His record aside-- at this point you need to be reminded there are three parks whose names are under consideration for renaming, not one.

 

27 posted on 07/27/2005 7:51:37 AM PDT by zipper (Freedom Isn't Free)
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To: ravinson
I can tell you read public education history books. Black history books that include a history of General Forrest cite data obtained far distanced from original sources. Most of the data claiming a massacre came from the Avalanche, a Unionist newspaper from Memphis. Ignore the fact that the Union soldiers from Pillow were raping and stealing from the local women,the wives of the Confederates that attacked pillow, and the Unionists were part of the group that skinned Confederate POW's alive. The information is in the OR's and is readily available from credible primary sources.
29 posted on 07/27/2005 11:53:27 AM PDT by vetvetdoug (Shiloh, Corinth, Iuka, Brices Crossroads, Harrisburg, Britton Lane, Holly Springs, Hatchie Bridge,)
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To: ravinson
and Forrest was a ruthless slave trader who executed surrendering negro Union soldiers

Velvetdoug's post provides the probable source of that lie; the North hated Forrest because they feared him. Then as now they libeled freely whenever it suited them.

Since you seem interested in history, I recommend Shelby Foote's A Narrative History of the Civil War, for an honest and balanced account of the battle. In fact, the massacre occurred in Forrest's absence, and he stopped it.

Lefties view the Civil War as the triumph of good over evil and a step in the advancement of humanity toward an essentially Marxist ideal: abolition of property and absolute economic equality. This is the Ken Burns ideology and he owes much to Macphearson's Battle Cry of Freedom, a 60's era manifesto, still regarded valid in the liberal academy and propaganda mill.

30 posted on 07/30/2005 9:41:36 AM PDT by tsomer
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To: ravinson

Forrest was a very bad man if you were a Yankee fighting against him. If you were from Tennessee and wished to drive the invader from your land he was held in great esteem. I have a great personal fondness for the General since he married my "cousin" Mary Anne Montgomery. Forrest's wife and I share the same Grandfather a few generations back. DEO VINDICI


32 posted on 08/06/2005 4:30:23 PM PDT by Derryboy
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