Posted on 07/20/2005 12:13:49 PM PDT by Little Bill
Teaching should be a calling, not a profession. Teachers are trained to handle a roomful of kids, not educate them. That's why they take education courses, not subject content courses.
Of all the homeschoolers I know, not one has abandoned it in less than one full school year.
Whether a homeschooling parent is comfortable with math $ science or not, there are tutors, co-ops, community colleges etc etc to whom parents turn when they need help. Additionally, there are a great number of self-teaching books that will enable any interested kid to excel in the subject.
Homeschoolers aren't necessarily exceptional, we're just dedicated to the welfare of our kids and unwilling to leave it to those who don't care as much.
Teachers as a whole have lower SAT scores than the average college student, and their education courses are a joke. Didn't you see the story out of Massachusetts where 60% of prospective teachers who had to take a standardized test normed at the 8th grade level failed it ?
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/1998/sept98/failtest.html
You might want to rethink your reasons...
ping.
Dear SALChamps,
"I am merely saying that there are cases where parents say they are homeschooling and do not."
I think that few homeschoolers would disagree. However, you believe a minority of parents can homeschool, and most homeschoolers realize that they are far from being extraordinary, and realize from FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE that most parents (not all) can successfully homeschool, if that is their desire.
Any homeschooler here who believes that ALL parents will make great homeschoolers, please feel to differ with me.
"Before you say it, I have already stated that not all public schools are perfect."
That's nice. But our perspective is that many public schools are downright poor. I don't think that any homeschooler believes all public schools are bad (except in terms of disagreeing with the premise that the government should run schools - but that's a political issue, not a pedagogical issue).
Any homeschoolers here who differ with me, please speak up.
You also have a tendency to denigrate homeschooling, whether you realize it or not.
"Just because someone was able to procreate doesn't mean they will be a good teacher either."
What a snide, demeaning remark. Although taken to the extreme, there is some truth to it, in the main, it is false. Human beings are made to have children, rear them up, and successfully teach them to adulthood. That some humans may not meet that norm, that usual standard, is a truism. But to say more than that is a falsehood. To suggest that most parents are incapable of teaching their children is just not true. That's what humans are built for. It's in the design.
However, what really annoys me is your insistence that the public school establishment should have oversight over homeschoolers. That's a non-sequitur, logically idiotic, and just plain dumb.
The fact is that homeschoolers succeed at a higher rate than public schools. Homeschooled children routinely score higher on any measure of academic success than public schooled, or even private schooled children.
Homeschoolers use far fewer resources than public schools. At nearly a thousand bucks a kid for our curricula, we're positively spendthrifts among homeschoolers. Many homeschoolers do superb jobs of teaching their children for a few hundred dollars per year.
Conversely, the public school systems in my part of the country spend between $7,000 per child (my own county of Anne Arundel) to over $10,000 per child (Washington, DC). But frankly, the public schools in my county range from poor to mediocre, and the public schools in Washington, DC mostly range from poor to execrable. (I know that part of that is teachers' salaries. Would that it were actually a greater portion. In Prince George's County, Maryland, more than 50% of the school budget is NOT spent in the classroom for salaries, benefits, and actual materials and physical resources used by teachers and students. Prince George's County is not a particularly bad example of school system waste.)
So, it is your position that the people who accomplish less at far higher, far less efficient, far more wasteful costs should regulate the people who accomplish more for almost nothing. Sorry, SALChamps03, you seem like a nice person, but that viewpoint verges on mental delusion.
Then, you overlook the fact that public school systems are invariably controlled by a certain special interest group: public school teachers and administrators. I have personally felt the hostility ooze out of public school teachers for those of us who homeschool. Heck, I can feel it off you through the digital ink. In that we do far more for far less, it's true, we make you guys look bad. Well, public schools look bad enough without our assistance, so I guess, we make you guys look worse. And most public schoolteachers hate us for it.
And if you want to deny that, why don't you go look up the policy positions of the NEA regarding homeschooling? They are uniformly hostile in tone, demeaning in content, and propose severe and harsh regulations for homeschoolers that in many cases would crush us. Some of the proposed rules, if they were actually applied to all public school teachers, would force many public school teachers to find real jobs.
The teachers' union's official positions are all uniformly hostile and negative toward homeschoolers. But invariably, it's these folks who run the public school systems.
So, why do we want to be regulated by folks who hate us? Who would like to crush us?
In closing, your remarks are exaggerated, over the top, and represent a caricature of homeschoolers in general, and specifically, the homeschoolers here at FR and on this thread.
sitetest
In other words, teachers are going to rate teachers. You think one NEA member is going to fail another ? Fat chance.
But he didn't have to be a math major in college to get certified.
However, remember that some of the the greatest achievers in our lifetime went to public schools. Every county in America has one. They aren't going away. In the future, I will avoid these types of threads because it is my belief that some of you are deluded as well, and some of your beliefs border on fanaticism. As can be expected with any fanatic, you do not respond well to anything that doesn't reinforce your belief. I am done responding, and will not reply to anything else.
| EQUALS |
This made me laugh, as my dd and I have been having the same discussion. She'll be finished high school at age 16 (next year) and has no wish to even attend classes at the local community college - she thinks too much time is wasted and too many stupid assignments are given by teachers. We're looking into Goddard College, which seems to be a homeschoolers dream.
Gets no argument from me but red is not a good color for these old eyes.
Let's look beyond the statistics,though, to the question at the core of the debate. To quote Lenin, WHO, WHOM? Where is the appropriate locus of control? Socialism delivers "the bads" every place it's tried. Liberty and responsibility promote health and prosperity. Since you are posting and discussing the issues on this forum, demonstrating commendable good faith, I think we can agree to err on the side of liberty.
Dear SALChamps03,
"As I said before, any statement that doesn't treat homeschooling as the Second Coming of Christ is met with complete anger and denigration."
Hmmm... Well my own post, directed to all, certainly treated homeschooling as something less than the Second Coming. It's a bit early yet, but I don't see anyone responding to it with complete anger or denigration. Or any anger or denigration.
Other posts I've made on this thread and others have also stated explicitly that homeschooling isn't for everyone, that a small minority of homeschoolers fail (I have actually met one in the five years we've been homeschooling), and that there can be advantages to traditional schooling.
Yet, no homeschooler here has ever responded to anything I've written with complete anger or denigration. You overstate ridiculously.
"The 'snide' remark that you mention was in response to a specific statement by someone else, who made an equally snide remark that I choose not to point out again."
The reason you choose not to point it out is that it wasn't snide at all. Here it is:
" Sorry .. I don't buy it .. just because someone has the 'qualifications' doesn't mean they are a good teacher."
A perfectly reasonable remark that all of us can affirm by personal experience. The fact is, the percentage of "dud" teachers is higher than "dud" parents. In fact, it is that most folks aren't "dud" parents that most children are able to survive the certainty of encountering some fair share of "dud" teachers along the way.
"I believe that homeschooling is essentially a good thing. You do not feel the same way about public schools."
Not quite. You don't really know my views about public schools, as I haven't really discussed them. In fact, I've readily stated in this thread and others that there are public schools that actually do a decent job of educating kids. If public schools were inherently evil, that would be a difficult statement to make.
"However, remember that some of the the greatest achievers in our lifetime went to public schools."
Well, considering that somewhere north of 85% of all children go to public schools at any one time, and probably over 90% have gone to public schools for at least a while (although mostly educated in Catholic schools, I served a sentence... uh, term of three years in public schools, myself), it would be nearly impossible for that not to be the case. However, in many cases, these folks succeeded IN SPITE of their educational backgrounds, not because of them.
"In the future, I will avoid these types of threads..."
I think that's an excellent idea.
"...because it is my belief that some of you are deluded as well, and some of your beliefs border on fanaticism."
Hmmm.... You're the guy who thinks the people who fail should oversee the people who succeed. Perhaps you should check the image in the mirror if you're looking for the deluded.
"As can be expected with any fanatic, you do not respond well to anything that doesn't reinforce your belief."
Once again, SALChamps03, you're the one who writes posts that fly in the face of both facts and reason. Once again, perhaps you should look in the mirror.
"I am done responding, and will not reply to anything else."
Don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out. ;-)
sitetest
Dear TomSmedley,
Excellent post. You knocked it out of the ballpark.
sitetest
Dear cninves,
Yes, well often homeschoolers actually LIKE and GET ALONG with their parents, even as they move into "adolescence."
The anti-homeschoolers often think this is a sign of insufficient "socialization," or failure to become an independent person.
LOL.
sitetest
Just getting the bumper sticker noticed :-)
A few of my libertarian foes might have a better ending.
Shazam! My [homeschooled] daughter was a National Merit Scholarship Finalist [winner] this year.
Rat Catcher???
Is there something I missed here??
Children are learning machines, they have brains like sponges, put them in the right environment and with in their capabilities they will learn anything that is tossed at them.
My own Great grandfather had an eighth grade education, read, wrote and spoke three languages, English aside and he was native US, God forgive me that I should have to say that, read until he dropped.
It is not the kids it is the system.
Dear Timmy,
"Shazam! My [homeschooled] daughter was a National Merit Scholarship Finalist [winner] this year."
Wow! Cool!! Give your daughter my congratuations, from one National Merit Scholar to another (although mine was a little bit of a while ago. ;-) ).
sitetest
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