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To: SpringheelJack

Fair enough.

Have you done any internet reading on the subject?

You might want to start with the Quran. I would especially recommend the translations of Yusef Ali. In addition to Quranic quotes from post 48, try:

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

Qur’an 60:1 “Believers, take not my enemies and yours as allies, offering them love, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you, and have driven out the Prophet and you because you believe in Allah! If you have come out to struggle [fight jihad] in My Cause, and to seek My Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love with them: for I am aware of all you conceal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path. If they were to get the better of you, they would be your foes, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil (designs).”
Qur’an 60:5 “We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.’”
Qur’an 48:13 “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”
Qur’an 48:28 “It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it superior to every other religion, exalting it over them. Allah is a sufficient Witness. Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. Those who are with him are severe with Infidel unbelievers.”


Tabari VIII:130 “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.”

There's more, but pretty specific on the concept of co-existence.

Then there's the jizya, sharia, current major bloody world conflicts involving muslims (14 at last count I believe)...

There are a number of sites you can visit for information, if you truly desire to be knowledgeable.

Your attempts to portray muslims as left out victims in the world seems pretty much akin to blaming the rape victim for provoking the rapist by dressing provocatively.

My intent was not to insult you, although it was to force you to gain some concrete information of the subject matter.


103 posted on 07/18/2005 3:52:24 PM PDT by milford421
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To: milford421

Right. And let's turn out those Christian verses about hating your father and mother, carrying two swords, the blood of Christ being on the Jews' heads and their progeny, and so on to the end. Useful propaganda for radical-minded Muslims, I'm sure, during the 16th and 17th centuries, when all those idiotic religious wars spawned by Christianity were ripping apart Europe, as radical Islam now threatens to do.

There's junk like this in every religious book --- and probably worst of all in the Hebrew Bible. That's hardly an indictment against all its adherents, and indeed, we have millions of Muslims in America and in Europe who live peacefully with others and only desire to live a good life. There are many in Iraq and Afghanistan too, who are dying assisting the governments in those countries, resisting terror and violence as either soldiers or civilians, and also strong and brave enough to head out into the street and vote for their future like we saw earlier this year. Each of them who did that risked their lives for democracy. They would be model citizens anywhere.

If we're going to selectively quote verses from the Koran let's also quote stuff like this (Shakir translation, 2:62): "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." That's rather more accomodating than Jesus's injunction that "the only way to the Father is through me," but who cares. We could pick & choose verses from thousand-year-old religious texts all day long in order to condemn or laud people currently living. I think, though, that all that verse-hurling sheds more heat than light --- and that heat a particularly pernicious kind.

Most Muslims are good, many that aren't probably have the potential to be good if not raised in an atmosphere of separation from, and hostility towards, the world around them. I don't know who arranged the reception described in this article, but it does show the Muslim community here in America trying to engage with those who aren't a part of themselves, and that strikes me as a positive. I don't think Islam is specifically the problem here, but rather Islam as spawned in a particular kind of environment --- one isolated, poor, and poorly conformed to the modern world.


106 posted on 07/18/2005 10:53:00 PM PDT by SpringheelJack
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