Posted on 06/30/2005 9:17:54 PM PDT by Destro
As I happened to be born and to grow up in thucking USSR, before getting out of there in 1981, I am reasonably well familiar with the sordid history of the place. I keep celebrating the anniversaries of getting out of there on par with birthdays.
"The only reason there are so many Russians in Ukraine is because the Kremlin exported them after getting rid of 10 million Ukrainians."
Actually, I've heard that most ethnic Russians came to the Ukraine from 1600 to 1800.
"No Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine? Stalin had no problem finding them when he killed 10 million."
Actually, the death toll is somewhat disputed. For example, I came across this post on the soc.culture.ukrainian newsgroup:
"There are various estimates of the number of victims in Ukraine in 1932-1933. The maximum figure suggested is over six million (1976 samvydav document of the Ukrainian Helsinki Group). Others give a figure of three to four million (D. Solovii, M. Prykhodko, W.H. Chamberlin, and
V. Hryshko). V. Kubijovyc and C. Manning suggest two to three million." Also:
"There is an extensive list of memoirs and studies on the subject [the Famine of 1932-1933 by Ukrainian, Russian, and other writers, but a basic documentary study is still lacking."
That's from Vasyl Markus's article in The Encyclopedia of Ukraine (which is published by the University of Toronto Press, I believe). However, the Encyclopedia of Ukraine dates from 1984, if I'm not mistaken. So there might have been further study.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.ukrainian/browse_frm/thread/f05ce9acf372dffe/e11283046d5a818a?q=murder&rnum=1&hl=en#e11283046d5a818a
Actually, I believe that anthropologists recognize the Ukrainians as a distinct East Slavic ethnic group. Yes, there's a good degree of Russian influence among Eastern Ukrainians, just as there is Polish and Austro-Hungarian among Western Ukrainians. True, the Famine hit the Russian Orthodox Ukrainians the hardest, while Galicia was still part of Poland, if I'm not mistaken.
That is why I like to use religion to describe Ukrainians over "ethnicity".
"Ukrainian is a GEOGRAPHIC distinction that is why the land is called THE UKRAINE. In the Ukraine in the East are mostly ethnic Russians/Eastern Orthodox. In the Western Ukraine are mostly Greek or Roman Catholics. The Soviet (not Russian) induced famine hit the Russian/Orthodox hardest."
Ukraine is an autonomous country unless you happen to be a russophile that still maintains delusions of imperial destiny.
Ukraine predates Moscovy and it was Stalin himself who admitted to Churchill that he killed 10 million "Ukranians" I suggest you read "Assignment in Utopia " by Lyons
Being a geographic name - anyone who lives in the Ukraine is a Ukranian just like anyone who lives in Texas is a Texan.
Try again. Belaruss was the Ukraine, under Kieven Russ, since Ukraine means the edge of civilization. Gads, education, it does a mind good.
Written By: Percy French
Copyright Unknown
The sons of the prophet were hardy and bold,
And quite unaccustomed to fear,
But the bravest of these was a man, I am told
Named Abdul Abulbul Amir.
This son of the desert, in battle aroused,
Could spit twenty men on his spear.
A terrible creature, both sober and soused
Was Abdul Abulbul Amir.
When they needed a man to encourage the van,
Or to harass the foe from the rear,
Or to storm a redoubt, they had only to shout
For Abdul Abulbul Amir.
There are heroes aplenty and men known to fame
In the troops that were led by the Czar;
But the bravest of these was a man by the name
Of Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
He could imitate Irving, play Euchre and pool
And perform on the Spanish Guitar.
In fact, quite the cream of the Muscovite team
Was Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
The ladies all loved him, his rivals were few;
He could drink them all under the bar.
As gallant or tank, there was no one to rank
With Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
One day this bold Russian had shouldered his gun
And donned his most truculent sneer
Downtown he did go, where he trod on the toe
Of Abdul Abulbul Amir
"Young man," quoth Bulbul, "has life grown so dull,
That you're anxious to end your career?
Vile infidel! Know, you have trod on the toe
Of Abdul Abulbul Amir."
"So take your last look at the sunshine and brook
And send your regrets to the Czar;
By this I imply you are going to die,
Mr. Ivan Skavinsky Skivar."
Quoth Ivan, "My friend, your remarks, in the end,
Will avail you but little, I fear,
For you ne'er will survive to repeat them alive,
Mr. Abdul Abulbul Amir!"
Then this bold mameluke drew his trusty chibouque
With a cry of "Allah Akbar!"
And with murderous intent, he ferociously went
For Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
They parried and thrust and they side-stepped and cussed
'Till their blood would have filled a great pot.
The philologist blokes, who seldom crack jokes,
Say that hash was first made on that spot.
They fought all that night, 'neath the pale yellow moon;
The din, it was heard from afar;
And great multitudes came, so great was the fame
of Abdul and Ivan Skivar.
As Abdul's long knife was extracting the life -
In fact, he was shouting "Huzzah!" - -
He felt himself struck by that wily Kalmuck,
Count Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
The sultan drove by in his red-breasted fly,
Expecting the victor to cheer;
But he only drew nigh to hear the last sigh
Of Abdul Abulbul Amir.
Czar Petrovich, too, in his spectacles blue
Rode up in his new crested car.
He arrived just in time to exchange a last line
With Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
A loud-sounding splash from the Danube was heard
Resounding o'er meadows afar;
It came from the sack fitting close to the back
Of Ivan Skavinsky Skovar.
There's a tomb rises up where the blue Danube flows;
Engraved there in characters clear;
"Ah stranger, when passing, please pray for the soul
Of Abdul Abulbul Amir."
A Muscovite maiden her lone vigil keeps,
'Neath the light of the pale polar star;
And the name that she murmurs as oft as she weeps
Is Ivan Skavinsky Skivar.
This poem says it all. Thanks so much. I knew there would be someone on FR who remembered!
:-)
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