House pushes Navy to buy more ships in 2006

CongressDaily ^ | June 22, 2005 | Megan Scully

[superiorslots]

Quote: I don't go to war in '67 mustang. BTW - the latest hot cars would blow away a '67 mustang.




My best friend just put a turbocharged 4.6 fuel injection engine (with nitrous)(out of a 03 mustang) in his 65 mustang that puts out probaly 650-700 horse. And your point about updated old ships is?...:)

[Jeff Head]

He is out of date. Not unusual in this business. Things are moving fast.

We are decommissioning ships faster than planned, and the Chinese are building them faster.

The Type 052C (their Aegis like) now number two as of last year. Same with the Type 052B. They have a number of brand new classes under construction, including an entirely new AEGIS like which is just off the way, hull numbner 115.

Anyhow...we can mence numbers all day long, I stand by my own feelings and recommendations. You and any others are free to disagree and cite your own numbers.

[ProudVet77]

That data is badly outdated.
Check your own US Navy Fact sheet. The names of the active ships are listed beneath the class. They list three of them. Global security has a big problem, in that they have an old website mixed in with the new one. If you grab the wrong website (fas.org?) in a search you'll get the old stuff. Here's the latest ship list for Spruance.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-963-unit.htm
updated 02-05-2005 21:21:12 Zulu

[Jeff Head]

The pictures coming off of the Chinese ways do not lie. The buildup does exist and many in the Administration and naval planning circles are recognizing it and discussing it openly. This thread, regarding talk in congress about the same, is but one out growth of that.

[Jeff Head]

As I said, if we are down to three Spruances...and down to that so quickly...then shame on us. Good vessels with great capability retired long before their time.

In the face of the Chinese shipbuilding, IMHO, it is crazy. But I have already said how I feel in that regard on this thread ad nuasium.

Gotta check out now...lots of work to do.

This weekend I will post a thread here on FR with the photographic evidence coming out of China regarding the naval buildup. Our own intelligence si recognizing it and reporting on it now too.

[Jeff Head]

Thanks. I feel there is very ample reason for concern. Others feel differently.

[ProudVet77]

"an entirely new AEGIS like"
Beware of the term Aegis like. This has been heavily discussed over at strategypage.com because people have jumped to the same conclusion because of it's radar aantenna, even though we don't know if the radar even works yet. (No Elint indication)
Aegis is not a radar or a missile system, it is a battle management system that allows all the ships and aircraft in the area (including subs and USAF) to share data and weapon resources. It's designed to handle thousands of simultaneous threats at the same time.

[B4Ranch]

A couple of questions for both of you and anyone else who knows the subject.

Background: The United States is the top steel producer in the world. Indiana employs over 33,000 people in the steel industry, making the state the nation’s second largest steel producer. Internal use of the steel for a variety of industries (automotive, shipping, buildings, rail) ranks as the number one use of U.S./Indiana produced steel. US steel exports also exist in limited quantities. Since January of 1998, nearly 43,000 people employed in the US steel industry have lost their jobs: 9,600 of them in January, 2002 alone. Of the seven steel mills (Bethlehem, Ispat/Inland, USX/US Steel, LTV, LaSalle, National, American) located in the tri-county region of Lake/Porter/LaPorte, four have fled to bankruptcy court and several require significant equipment overhaul costing millions of dollars.

Do you recall that all the steel from the World Trade Centers was shipped to China? Why was this done? Don't we have mills capable of melting huge beams and trusses anymore?

Korea and China now produce steel cheaper than we do.

QUESTIONS: Where do we have steelmills in CONUS, other than Indiana that are capable of producing the heavy steel necessary for ship and submarine construction? (and steel bridges) What is the financial situation of these steelmills?

If we do go to war with China who is going to provide us the steel necessary for repairs and new construction? I would think one or two subs would be able to sink every steel bearing ship leaving Korea. Right/ wrong?

I know that all of the gigantic earthmovers used in open mining are of foreign construction. To me this indicates that we are incapable of the foreign competition. (Think world trade agreements here.) What is going to be the situation in 10 years? Will we have any mills at all?

What percentage of a new US Navy ship is built overseas?

[ProudVet77]

My point is that it's still a '67 mustang ;) It uses the same old internal combustion engine and has 4 wheels.
The defense department is building F-22s. ;)

[Magnum44]

Just FYI, I noticed just on yesterdays news that attention has been paid lately to your concerns about the PRC Naval build up by Rumsfeld and the press folks at the Pentagon. Rest assured that, despite what I cant say, when something is now being discussed public ally at this level, it has been the subject of concern behind the scenes by all concerned for considerable time (read years).

Also keep in mind that, while acquiring adequate forces is a necessary part of the solution, so are the development of new/innovative tactics, use of force multipliers, and other less talked about means of keeping the balance. How we fight is as important as the tools we fight with. You know this but I just wanted to once again assure you that this situation is monitored very closely.

[ProudVet77]

This will be an educated guess based on stuff I've heard.
Why do other countries produce steel and we don't?
EPA/OSHA and unions.
Besides Indiana, there are some small mills operating, in PA and I think NC. They were electric fired as I recall.
Why move the WTC steel overseas?
EPA/OSHA and unions.
We do have problems with manufacturing (I used to be a manufacturing engineer). It's a shame. But we have legislated ourselves out of manufacturing. To many OSHA/EPA and other regulating bodies. To many liability lawsuits. Too many lawyers. Manufacturing jobs were traditionally a gateway for people to earn a good wage without a college degree. We've lost an important social mechanism.
If we go to war with China, the fact they provide iron won't likely be an issue. We will go to war with what we have on hand at the time. It takes several years to build a major ship.
All USN vessels are made in the US, with the exception of a few demonstrator models, such as that catamaran the Army is using. Subsystems may be built by certain allies like the UK and Oz. In fact we get quite a bit of hi-tech from both of them as they get it from us. This is true on the JSF as well.

[B4Ranch]

>>we have legislated ourselves out of manufacturing. To many OSHA/EPA and other regulating bodies.<<

NAFTA was a mistake for America.

[Wristpin]

True, but they spent $70 Billion total on defense this year...Assuming the naval piece of the pie is 1/3 of that, How do we compare?

[Wombat101]

Here's another piece of the puzzle:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007092.php

Anyone notice how North Vietnam is being rather nice lately, too?

[ProudVet77]

This is part of Vietnam's reasons.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pg.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pf.html
Friends who live in the region expect a flare up here before Taiwan.