Posted on 06/20/2005 3:27:04 PM PDT by blam
To G Larry: So, how did Kennewick Man get here?
He was a white guy.
Kennewick Man was most likely related to Ainu, and came to the New World with the Early Coastal Migration. No mtDNA, but the cranial shape is suggestive. The Ainu were lighter skinned, but southeast Asian, not European. Don’t trust the newspaper accounts.
To Clock King: Did you know that there are descendents of African pygmies in the Philipines? They are called the "negritos", little blacks. Their ancestors came there 5000 years ago!
The Negritos of the southwest Pacific are not related to the Pygmies of Africa. The environment encourages similar body forms (given time to adapt). Observation of physical types (skin color, hair form, nasal shape, etc.) is the classic view of race--but these features change with changing environment and climate. The descent group is the key to relationships, however--mtDNA, blood type, fingerprint patterns, and a lot of other inherited but non-environmentally linked traits.
To Bernard Marx: I live about 4 miles from some amazing Chumash rock art but it's hard to access -- off limits, so to speak. One of them shows a rescue operation after a boat capsized.
Unfortunately most rock art along the Pacific coast is probably not of that antiquity; a couple of thousand years might be about all. The example you cite probably shows a more recent incident involving boats, but not back as far as their origins.
To hunter112: The only thing that doesn't make sense is why they didn't succeed in California, they were quite adept at colonizing every livable piece of land in the Pacific.
The primary reason they did not succeed in California is that there were already people here. A small boatload of people, even if they took up residence, would be readily absorbed by a much larger existing population. But neat ideas could be quickly adapted and spread. Pigs were mentioned; they probably would have been eaten. Even the horse in early California was more of a meal than a ride to the late-mission and post-mission Indians (during the general 1820-1850 period the Indians were excellent horse thieves, but sometimes were caught when they stopped to dine before they got well away).
To Bernard Marx: Interesting. Do you happen to have a cite for that? I'd like to know what Indian populations were tested, etc.
Try a Google for mtDNA, Polynesia, Heyerdahl, and South America or some such. Try different combinations until you get what you need. I did that a few months ago and there were several good references.
To blam: If we can use his present day Ainu ancestors as a guide, he would be tall, hairy and light skinned. Kennewick Man is 9,300 years old. The oldest (undisputed) Mongoloid skeleton ever found is only 10,000 years old. It is my theory that the Jomon/Ainu dominated large areas of Asia in ancient times and the Caucasians and Mongoloids both are a 'branch' from that line.
The Early Coastal Migration was probably from southeast Asia, beginning as far south as Indonesia and progressing along the Japanese then Aleutian islands. The inland migration was probably from farther north in Asia, perhaps toward Siberia. The two migrations may have been largely unrelated, with the latter the more Mongoloid type. The Caucasians branched off before the cold-weather Mongoloid adaptations. I can provide a couple of references if you are interested.
To blam: Emboldened by her finding, Gonzalez will try to prove her theory that the bones of the Peñon Woman belong not to Native Americans, but to descendants of the Ainu people of Japan.
She said she bases her hypothesis on the elongated, narrow shape of the Peñon Woman's skull. Native Americans, she said, are round-faced with broad cheeks. "Quite different from Peñon Woman," she said.
She said she believes descendants of the Ainu people made their way to the New World by island hoping on boats.
This is going to be interesting!
To cronos: They are NOT descendents of African pygmies. THey are the first group fo Humans to leave Africa-the Middle East. They are Australoid and include those tribes that live in the Andaman and Nicobar islands of India, in Borneo and the aborigines of Australia. They migrated more than 10,000 + years B.C.
They are probably much later, closer to 60,000-70,000 years ago.
To SunkenCiv: Not to cause trouble or anything, but could it be that the Polynesians originated (more or less) in the Americas? :')
No. Polynesians are clearly related to the west, southeast Asia, not to the Americas. mtDNA again. Good articles linked through Google (see above).
About this point the thread degenerated into the usual name-calling, etc.
One last note: the primary archaeological journal in the Americas, American Antiquity, will publish an article on the Chumash/Polynesian connection in the July issue. Take it seriously, folks!
Fathers can be influential tooBiologists have warned for some years that paternal mitochondria do penetrate the human egg and survive for several hours... Erika Hagelberg from the University of Cambridge, UK, and colleagues... were carrying out a study of mitochondrial DNAs from hundreds of people from Papua-New Guinea and the Melanesian islands in order to study the history of human migration into this region of the western Pacific... People from all three mitochondrial groups live on Nguna. And, in all three groups, Hagelberg's group found the same mutation, a mutation previously seen only in an individual from northern Europe, and nowhere else in Melanesia, or for that matter anywhere else in the world... Adam Eyre-Walker, Noel Smith and John Maynard Smith from the University of Sussex, Brighton, UK confirm this view with a mathematical analysis of the occurrence of the so-called 'homoplasies' that appear in human mitochondrial DNA... reanalysis of a selection of European and African mitochondrial DNA sequences by the Sussex researchers suggests that recombination is a far more likely cause of the homoplasies, as they find no evidence that these sites are particularly variable over all lineages.
by Eleanor LawrenceIs Eve older than we thought?"Two studies prove that the estimation of both when and where humanity first arose could be seriously flawed... The ruler scientists have been using is based on genetic changes in mitochondria, simple bacteria that live inside us and control the energy requirements of our cells. Mitochondria are passed from mother to daughter and their genes mutate at a set rate which can be estimated - so many mutations per 1,000 years... However, these calculations are based upon a major assumption which, according to Prof John Maynard Smith, from Sussex University, is 'simply wrong'. The idea that underpins this dating technique is that mitochondria, like some kinds of bacteria, do not have sex... Two groups of researchers, Prof Maynard Smith and colleagues Adam Eyre-Walker and Noel Smith, also from Sussex, and Dr Erika Hagelberg and colleagues from the University of Otago, New Zealand, have found that mitochondria do indeed have sex - which means that genes from both males and females is mixed and the DNA in their offspring is very different... Prof Maynard Smith and his colleagues stumbled over mitochondria having sex in the process of tracking the spread of bacterial resistance to meningitis... For the 'out-of-Africa' theory to hold water, the first population would have to have been very small. Sexually rampant mitochondria may put paid to this idea. Maynard Smith thinks that the origin of humanity is much older - may be twice as old - which, according to Eyre-Walker, means we are likely to have evolved in many different areas of the world and did not descend from Eve in Africa."
by Sanjida O'Connell 15th April 1999
Yes. Very interested...I'd like to see something more specific. I've suspected this but never had 'hard' evidence.
Did you see Oppenheimer's Journey Of Mankind DNA map that I post from time to time. His map shows an early group entering the Americans about 25,000 years ago and are responsible for the artifacts at Meadowcroft. I believe these people may be the Ainu 'types' that we see in Kennewick Man, Spirit Cave Man and perhaps the folks found in Mexico. They were probably killed or absorbed by the later groups of Mongoloids.
Oppenheimer said that he thought there were probably five waves of immigrants but, his data only supports three waves.(?)
Yes, I'm still suspicious of conclusions drawn from DNA. I just don't think we have a thorough understanding.
Not sure if the Ainu migration reached Meadowcroft or not. That would mean at least two migrations for that group. The Pacific coast Early Coastal Migration is probably related to the Ainu, some 13-15,000 years ago or more. That would account for Kennewick Man and Santa Rosa Woman, as well as early South American finds. But Meadowcroft is a long way from the Pacific Ocean where watercraft would have been the most convenient, and quickest mode of travel.
Frank Huston, an un-reconstructed 'Reb' and 'squawman', believed that the Arapahoes were decended from the Phoenecians... and that the Cheyenne were of Norse ancestry.
AFAIC, mtDNA studies are GIGO.
Yes. I have Eden In The East and Out Of Eden, both excellent books.
"Not sure if the Ainu migration reached Meadowcroft or not. That would mean at least two migrations for that group. The Pacific coast Early Coastal Migration is probably related to the Ainu, some 13-15,000 years ago or more. That would account for Kennewick Man and Santa Rosa Woman, as well as early South American finds. But Meadowcroft is a long way from the Pacific Ocean where watercraft would have been the most convenient, and quickest mode of travel."
I agree, the Meadowcroft group is questionable but, Oppenheimer shows them as 'refugees' there in the northeast. I've read that the oldest Mongoloid skeleton ever found in the Americas is only 6,000 years old. I'm thinking that must be true because all the oldest skeletons discovered are of the 'Ainu-type'.
Oppenheimer says that the Ametican-Indians with the highest % of the 'X-gene' are the Indian group objawia(sp) in the northeast.(May be from the early refugee group?)
The 'X-gene' connection between Europe and the Americas was broken with the Toba explosion. A lot of people mistake the 'X-gene' found in the American-Indians and Europeans as evidence for the early arrival of Europeans into the Americas.
We've communicated with the guy who did the DNA analysis on this group and he said that the original DNA was contaminated with modern DNA. Don't know what is going on with this group presently.
Contamination is a real problem. That's why they often do multiple extractions, and have the DNA profiles of the lab workers on file. A little dandruff can ruin a lab!
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Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution. |
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