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Flag Protection: New Poll Shows Over 80 Percent of Americans Support It
US Newswire ^
| 6/20/05
Posted on 06/20/2005 10:35:24 AM PDT by Tumbleweed_Connection
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To: EternalVigilance
Every cross burning I've seen has violated trespass laws AND/OR has been a threat to someone.
81
posted on
06/20/2005 1:05:26 PM PDT
by
Sacajaweau
(God Bless Our Troops!!)
To: RS
I have to admit, it's hard not to defend THAT inappropriate use of a Flag ...
82
posted on
06/20/2005 1:07:41 PM PDT
by
so_real
("The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
To: Publius Valerius
![](http://www.splcenter.org/images/imglib/K/ir_107_crossburning_200x200.jpg)
Hey, it's just a symbol!
/sarcasm
83
posted on
06/20/2005 1:08:42 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
('Quality of Life': another name for the slippery slope into barbarism...)
To: so_real
It's different in a couple of ways--although I'll begin by noting that I don't think there should be ANY criminal law for speech, and that includes yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre.
But that said, there are some major differences. For one, yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre puts everyone in the theatre in imminent risk of harm from the panic which would ensue as everyone attempted to escape. Notice that it is yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, not an empty theatre. Falsely yelling "fire" is not inherently punishable--it is only yelling it when there is a serious risk of danger to the public that it is actionable by the state. Burning a flag does not endanger the public in any of the same sort of ways.
Second, there is no inherent political message in yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, and thus the speech isn't as "valuable" as burning a flag, which carries with it a political message designed to reach an audience to incite political change.
I don't know that I would say yelling "fire" is more akin to action, but there are certainly major differences.
To: EternalVigilance
If you wrap a Koran in a American Flag and burn it, would that be good or bad?
85
posted on
06/20/2005 1:11:36 PM PDT
by
TheForceOfOne
(My tagline is currently being blocked by Congressional filibuster for being to harsh.)
To: Sacajaweau
Every cross burning I've seen has violated trespass laws AND/OR has been a threat to someone. Personally, I would consider every person who burns Old Glory 'as a political statement' every bit as much a threat to our way of life as the most virulent Klukker...a threat to "...the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
86
posted on
06/20/2005 1:12:02 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
('Quality of Life': another name for the slippery slope into barbarism...)
To: so_real
I don't gather how shouting "Fire!" is more of an *action* than striking a match and holding it to "Old Glory"Because yelling fire in a crowded theater can cause immediate harm to those around you. Burning a piece of cloth doesn't cause harm. It may make you mad, but it doesn't cause harm. The First Amendment doesn't protect speech or action that does harm. Burning a flag does neither. Really though I don't care what's advocated, I don't fly it in my front yard and I'm sure as heck not going to say a pledge to it. Of course I expect 'conservatives' to try to pass some Amendment on that next.
87
posted on
06/20/2005 1:12:45 PM PDT
by
billbears
(Deo Vindice)
To: EternalVigilance
with liberty and justice for all. Yep. Wouldn't want free speech to get in the way of liberty, huh?
To: so_real
I don't gather how shouting "Fire!" is more of an *action* than striking a match and holding it to "Old Glory". Both are designed to illicit a response from the surrounding crowd. Burning the flag is a pretty clear message- "I hate America."
What message does (falsely) claiming that there is a fire put forward?
89
posted on
06/20/2005 1:14:03 PM PDT
by
Modernman
("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
To: so_real
I don't gather how shouting "Fire!" is more of an *action* than striking a match and holding it to "Old Glory". Both are designed to illicit a response from the surrounding crowd. I may not support a Constitutional amendment to make it illegal, but I'm more likely to punch someone in the nose for burning the Flag than I am for yelling "Fire!". My two cents, anyway.I think you misunderstand just why shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre is not protected speech. It has nothing to do with the likelihood that you'll punch someone in the nose.
Shouting "Fire" is likely to start a stampede for the exits. That means a very real chance that a person could be injured as a direct result of the speech. Unless you can demonstrate a danger of physical injury (and no, bruised feelings don't count), then there is no grounds upon which to ban flag-burning.
Which is self-evident, by the way. If that was in any way applicable to flag-burning, these people wouldn't need an amendment to molest the First Amendment - they would already have done so.
90
posted on
06/20/2005 1:14:27 PM PDT
by
highball
("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
To: RS
91
posted on
06/20/2005 1:16:20 PM PDT
by
houeto
("Mr. President , close our borders now!")
To: TheForceOfOne
If you wrap a Koran in a American Flag and burn it, would that be good or bad? Burn all the Koran's you want. I don't care. There is nothing there that represents "...the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In fact, it represents exactly the opposite...
92
posted on
06/20/2005 1:16:21 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
('Quality of Life': another name for the slippery slope into barbarism...)
To: EternalVigilance
But what about the flag that got burnt in the process?
93
posted on
06/20/2005 1:17:43 PM PDT
by
TheForceOfOne
(My tagline is currently being blocked by Congressional filibuster for being to harsh.)
To: Tumbleweed_Connection
Count me in the other 19 percent. If I purchase a flag, it is my personal property, and I can deface it if I like.
94
posted on
06/20/2005 1:17:58 PM PDT
by
Sloth
(History's greatest monsters: Hitler, Stalin, Mao & Durbin)
To: Modernman
"Burning the flag is a pretty clear message- "I hate America."
Would that make it a hate crime ?
Is the Flag to be protected by putting it in the category with the Gay and Lesbians ?
95
posted on
06/20/2005 1:19:30 PM PDT
by
RS
(Just because they are out to get him, it doesn't mean he's not guilty.)
To: Publius Valerius
Yep. Wouldn't want free speech to get in the way of liberty, huh? Liberty never did mean the freedom to do anything you please. Too many today, including you, apparently, have that misguided notion, but it was never so in the minds of the Founders of this republic.
Liberty means the freedom to do good, not freedom to do evil.
Burning the flag as a political expression is an attack on everything that banner stands for.
It's evil.
96
posted on
06/20/2005 1:21:41 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
('Quality of Life': another name for the slippery slope into barbarism...)
To: Publius Valerius
Yes, defense of others--people. Not a piece of cloth. Nonsense. The law ALSO allows you to employ reasonable force to protect property, it's just circumscribed to a greater degree. For example, in most jurisdictions you cannot use deadly force to protect property (but don't try to burgle a Texan's home). I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it's the law.
Things tend to sort themselves out when both sides are allowed to express themselves freely. In your example the second veteran would not be privileged unless the first veteran were employing unreasonable force on the flag burner. The second veteran could and should be prosecuted for assault.
Abortion clinics are private property. They don't factor into the discussion.
This isn't rocket science. Scenarios such as these are being played out every day under the law in countless venues. All I'm suggesting is that we place public flag desecration on the same level. The government should butt out and let people sort it out.
97
posted on
06/20/2005 1:24:02 PM PDT
by
JCEccles
To: billbears
It may make you mad, but it doesn't cause harm. Burn one in my presence, and it may.
If burning Old Glory is 'speech', than it definitely qualifies as 'fighting words'.
98
posted on
06/20/2005 1:24:16 PM PDT
by
EternalVigilance
('Quality of Life': another name for the slippery slope into barbarism...)
To: EternalVigilance
Never said it did mean freedom to do anything you please--a person's liberty is bound by actions that do no harm to others. Basic social contract stuff.
Burning a flag does no harm to anyone, physically or otherwise.
I think what you really mean to say is that you think there should be liberty so long as you approve of what everyone is doing.
By the way, who says what is evil? You?
To: JCEccles
The law ALSO allows you to employ reasonable force to protect property, it's just circumscribed to a greater degree Sure, your own property. If I burn your flag, you can stop me. If I burn my own flag, you have no right to interfere with my destruction of my own property.
100
posted on
06/20/2005 1:29:39 PM PDT
by
Modernman
("Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made." -Bismarck)
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