Profound questions from the Schiavo case

Minneapolis Star Tribune ^ | 6/16/05 | Katherine Kersten

[rhema]

. . .People of goodwill may disagree about Terri Schiavo's case. Yet as our society strays from its traditional belief in the essential dignity of every human life, we all must grapple with the implications of the notion that some lives are "not worth living."

Today, assisted suicide is lawful in Oregon. In the Netherlands, according to the New York Times, prosecutors no longer pursue cases against doctors who kill severely impaired babies after birth. The temptation to deal with the defective and incompetent by eliminating them is likely to grow as our society ages. Today, approximately 4.5 million Americans have Alzheimer's disease. In coming decades, projections suggest that about 40 percent of us will spend roughly 10 years in an infirm, demented condition. The way we deal with this situation will say much about us as a society.

Currently, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is staging an exhibit . . . called "Deadly Medicine: Creating the Master Race." It examines the idea of "lebensunwertes Leben" -- lives not worthy of life --which the Nazis used to justify their elimination of thousands deemed unfit to live: the retarded, the defective and the seriously ill.

Some German intellectuals championed this idea well before the Nazi era began. A 1920 book, for example, decried "the meticulous care shown to existences which are not just absolutely worthless" -- the disabled and deformed -- "but even of negative value." It called for applying the "healing remedy" of premature death, in order to "eliminat[e] those who were born unfit for life or who later became so."

Today, we must ensure that we ourselves are not tempted to start down this slippery slope --moved by free choice rather than totalitarian edict, and seduced by a shallow notion of "death with dignity."

[Jibaholic]

Perhaps this has been answered. . .but you are mixing your issues here. Terri had no written Will. . .the 'State' will respedt your wife's decision - if she puts it in writing ie 'get a Will'. Sign a 'Living Will, as well.

This actually leads to my central point of departure from the Terri supporters. My wife and I don't have a living will. We have a Christian marriage covenant, which should be enough. I trust her to make the decisions for me, and she trusts me to make them for her. But that isn't enough for the Terri crowd. They want the government involved.

I keep bringing up the living will because *most* supporters are in favor of having feeding tubes removed if that is what the person wanted, they just don't trust Michael. Maybe they are right not to trust him, but without evidence that amounts to destroying the bonds of marriage.

[Xenalyte]

Let me try to make this clear for you.

If you are married, and your wife runs off with another man, even if you are in a coma, she is committing adultery.

The existence of marriage, not consciousness therein, determines adultery.

[Jibaholic]

You claimed to have evidence showing that Michael never abused Terri.

The autopsy shows no evidence of abuse. This is America. Innocent until proven guilty. If my wife were in a PVS should I have to produce proof that I've never abused her?

[Jibaholic]

If you are married, and your wife runs off with another man, even if you are in a coma, she is committing adultery.

If I were in a PVS I'd want my wife to remove the tube and move on with her life. If the government wouldn't let her legally, I'd want her to in spirit.

[STARWISE]

A Living Will typically specifies the medical efforts you DON'T want .. and those can be executed even if the patient becomes coherent and changes their mind. It's also called a DNR order .. do not rescusitate. Well, what if your situation can be corrected and you can survive in acceptable health BY rescusitation in some quirky medical crisis?

Better the Will to Live, which focuses on saving your life, if that's medically possible, as the FIRST priority, with your medical proxy/guardian named whom you've briefed on your wishes.

Overworked, fatigued, overly bureaucratized, and underbudgeted medical staff in hospitals can allow you die very easily these days with that signed DNR form in their hands. And when being nourished and hydrated by a tube (even if temporarily, which is prescribed in several acute ailments) is being construed by so many states now as "artificial life support" OR "medical treatment," you can see how easily a medical staff could allow someone to die who could be saved if they have that signed form.

None of us knows if or what situation could provoke our admittance to a hospital for an acute or temporary situation .. think very hard about your medical directives and how they could be interpreted at the time of crisis. By all means, inform your family IN DETAIL of your wishes, and choose a medical proxy who will fight for you, if they have to. They may have to.

WHEN THERE'S DOUBT, ALWAYS ERR ON THE SIDE OF

[Xenalyte]

Then write a living will, have it notarized, and you should be all set.

[Melas]

I disagree there Xena. If I'm comatose for 10 years, I've abandoned my wife and family, even if it's not of my own free will. To pretend that while lying comatose in a hospital bed that I was any kind of a husband or father would be a whopper of a lie. If I'm ever reduced to that state, I hope my wife moves on her, for her sake.

[flaglady47]

" I know you would of swear that Bulimia caused the collapse but we now know that there is no evidence for it,"
We also know that she did not have a heart attack either.
The coroner stated that her heart was 'strong' and in 'good condition' and probably was the reason she lasted so long AFTER the tube was removed the last time."

There was no evidence against bulimia either. The autopsy cannot explain the initial circumstances one way or the other. It is not possible. Immediately after the event, when she came to the hospital, her potassium was very low. This was caused by something, and possibly bulimia. She lost 100 pounds in a very short period of time. Bulimia is as good a possibility as anything else for what did her in.

Plus, no one but you Schiavo supporters ever said it was a "heart attack". You guys always throw this up as a red herring. It was CARDIAC ARREST, not a heart attack, and they are very different. Cardiac arrest is caused by oxygen deprivation, which is what occurred with Terri, not a heart attack from some inherent heart defect. Get your medical terms straight. But then the truth is totally immaterial to you Terri supporters.

[ravingnutter]

so people shouldn't be allowed to make out living wills stipulating that they would want feeding tubes removed if they were in a PVS?

Again...I NEVER SAID THAT. You can make a living will to stipulate anything you want. JUST DO IT. But Terri did NOT have a will, living or otherwise. How do you know these were her wishes...YOU DON'T, we only have MS's word on that and he can't be trusted because he had a motive to want her dead. If you want to believe the cheating husband, fine. If you were a real Christian, you would see the problem with what he did.

You are either incredibly dense or you are a troll, I am beginning to think it is the latter.

[Jibaholic]

Then write a living will, have it notarized, and you should be all set.

To me that is what a Christian marriage means. My wife is trusted in all ways. Terri supporters are undermining marriage.

[Jibaholic]

See my response in post #170

[blueriver]

Maybe they are right not to trust him, but without evidence that amounts to destroying the bonds of marriage.

Michael made a mockery of the bonds of marriage. What woman would want to be married to a man that is sleeping with another woman and having children with her? If this is your idea of the bonds of marriage then that is sad and it clearly shows you do not have a clue as to what the vows of matrimony mean. They do NOT include sleeping around with others. Michael left Terri the minute he started sleeping with Jodi and the girl before her.

If you are in PVS and your wife starts sleeping with another man then your wife is no longer your spouse and has violated the vow she took when she married you.

[tutstar]

from the article....
(Brother Paul)
"She was not dying, she was not on life support," he said. Terri needed just food and water -- what anyone needs to live -- like thousands of other incapacitated people with no hope of improvement: among them, adults with advanced Alzheimer's and children with severe cerebral palsy.

For Brother Paul, the Schiavo case raises an issue with implications for all people with disabilities, including many with problems less severe than Terri's. "Our society seems to be moving toward a new 'standard of care,' " he says. "Instead of assuming the sanctity of life, we try to determine whether a person should live solely by measuring his or her 'quality of life.' "

"People contemplate a seriously disabled person" -- like a quadriplegic --"and say, 'Who would want to live that way?' The answer, of course, is no one. But when people actually become disabled, they often discover a meaning in life that they never could have anticipated."

[Jibaholic]

Michael made a mockery of the bonds of marriage. What woman would want to be married to a man that is sleeping with another woman and having children with her?

Another repost because no one will respond:

Suppose I were in a PVS. I've told my wife I want the tube pulled.

Scenario A: She pulls the tube, five years later she meets someone new and starts a new family.
Scenario B: The courts don't let her pull the tube. My body stays alive for decades. Now when she meets someone new five years later it is called adultery. But I don't want my wife to put her life on hold for decades while she fights a legal battle.

[blueriver]

If I'm ever reduced to that state, I hope my wife moves on her, for her sake.

Michael should have moved on as well, divorced Terri and move on and let Terri be loved and cared for by her parents.

[Ghengis]

Because Terri's wish was not to be kept alive in a PVS. Michael was honoring her wish. What if your wife said she wouldn't want to be kept alive in a PVS but your wife's family disagreed?

Michael Shiavo may have been more believable on that issue if his abandoned wife's family did not have to leave messages for him through his common-law wife -- and mother of his children -- to discuss this issue regarding his abandoned wife.

[blueriver]

Another repost because no one will respond:

People have responded to your post - you are obviosly not reading any of them. so I will repeat

IF YOUR WIFE STARTS SLEEPING WITH SOME ONE ELSE SHE IS NOT HONERING HER MARRAGE VOW TO YOU.

You seem to think that marriage is some kind of joke, that when it becomes inconvenient the person should just be able to move on and start living with some one else.

[flaglady47]

"Why did he leave her for those other women?"

What kind of warped world do you live in? Michael lived with the Schindlers for the first few years after his wife was hospitalized. He didn't date. It was ROBERT SCHINDLER who told Michael he should start dating, and he even brought his occasional dates back home to meet the Schindlers. Eventually (about 4-5 years into it) he met someone he fell in love with. The falling out with the Schindlers did not occur because of any woman but because of an argument over money (the settlement Michael and Terri were awarded). The majority of that settlement went into trust for Terri, and about 300,000 went to Michael. Robert Schindler wanted a part of that 300,000, even though the award did not go to him. Hence the split in their relationship. Get your friggin facts straight.

What did you expect, that the man (Michael) was going to remain a celibate for the rest of his life? He didn't choose the hand dealt him. He had no possibility of conjugal visits with a wife who for all ostensible purposes was out of commission wife-wise for the rest of both of their lives. Man, all your compassion goes to someone who was PVS, and none for the husband deprived of his wife's companionship forever. You expect that he should have acted like a monk. Well he wasn't one, he is a man, a young man, a man who like any other needs companionship in his life. He told his friends how lonely he was without his wife. Geez, get a grip on reality, not fantasy.

[STARWISE]

I assume you must have read up on this "condition" and now discovered that it's very fickle condition to identify, label, predict outcomes, etc., and there's many opposing views.

The brain is still a frontier of major scientific exloration .. much is still unnknown about this miraculous body that God gave us, and the brain is particularly complex, sophisticated and amazing. You do recall the recent sudden awakenings of people in comas for 10, 15+ years .. do you not?

Pray that you will have the knowledge, resources, and fortitude to fight for your wife, if that's necessary since she's entrusted you with her one precious life on earth.

No state will have reason to step in unless there are questionable or suspect circumstances involving your relationship or how she got into a critical condition, so no worries, right?

[Ghengis]

Suppose I were in a PVS. I've told my wife I want the tube pulled.

Scenario A: She pulls the tube, five years later she meets someone new and starts a new family.
Scenario B: The courts don't let her pull the tube. My body stays alive for decades. Now when she meets someone new five years later it is called adultery. But I don't want my wife to put her life on hold for decades while she fights a legal battle.

Wasn't Michael Shaivo involving himself in sexual affairs with other women within 6 months of his wife's "accident" (for lack of a more accurate term)?