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To: sheltonmac
"Some people cannot grasp the fact that slavery was once a social reality in this country, and at the time of the War Between the States it was practiced in the North as well as the South."

There was a big difference. It was a rarity in the North and it was a dominant feature of society in the South. In a political sense, it was opposed by majorities in the North and supported by majorities in the South. That is not historically insignificant.

"Anyone even remotely familiar with Lincoln's speeches and writings knows that freeing the slaves was never one of his primary objectives. In 1862, he said, 'My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery' It wasn't until his war against the South seemed to be going badly for the North that slavery even became an issue for him. Contrary to popular belief, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was merely a public relations ploy"

You attempt to rewrite history by ignoring facts that incoveniently dispute your "history". One need only read the Lincol-Douglas debates (which happened before Lincoln ran for President) to know that Lincoln was philosophically opposed to slavery. The fact that his "paramount" objective, his primary objective was preserving the Union represents his legal and political intentions within his understanding of what he could do. No one questions the unique times and circumstances in which he later issued the Emancipation Proclamation, and most do question whether or not it would have held up constitutionally, as the nation moved further ahead after the war. That is a moot point, because that proclamation provided the philosophical foundation for the constitutional amendments that immediately followed, to codify the end of slavery in the law. The idea that Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation only because he was "losing" the war is wishful thinking on your part, and not supported by the military history of the war.

"It was an attempt to turn an illegal, unconstitutional war into a humanitarian cause that would win over those who had originally been sympathetic to the South's right to secede."

Lincoln correctly understood the southern states - in particular the governments of the souther states - did not have a "right to secede". The United States Consitution is not a contract between the states, it is a contract between the people of the United States, all the people of the whole nation. This was firmly established once the Constitution was ratified. The sovereignty of the independent states became a limited sovereignty, subject to "we the people" of the United States, as a whole. Once the constitution was ratified, the states had no more right to secede, by their own volition, than they did to conduct their own foreign affairs or perform many other "sovereign" "rights" that were subsumed into the federal government. "Secession" was only possible through congressional agreement and constitutional amendment; for which there was no supporting national political majority.

"Another thing to remember is that the Confederate states that had seceded were no longer bound by the laws of the United States. They were beyond Lincoln's jurisdiction because they were a sovereign nation."

You are stating no more than the failed convictions of confederate forces; a conviction which Lincoln, the Congress and the Courts did not agree with; and neither has history.

"Even if they weren't--and most people today deny the South ever left the Union--their respective rights would still have been guaranteed under the Constitution (see the 10th Amendment), denying Lincoln any authority at all to single-handedly free the slaves."

The 10th Amendment does not provide for a right to secede from the Union; which in your own rant you recognize was the immediate "cause" of the war, with slavery only an adjunct to that cause. Yet, in proper perspective slavery was the cause of the war because it was the basis for the reasons that many southern states wanted to secede. Without slavery, there was no southern CAUSE from which secession would have appealed. Attempts to put secession and "states rights" ahead of the underlying reason for them (slavery) does not work, factually, historically or philosophically. Slavery was the issue which created the political conditions which led to the war.

"When abolition finally came to those states--mostly due to the growth of an industrial economy in a region where cooler climatic conditions limited the use of slaves in large-scale farming operations--Northern slaves were sold to plantation owners in the agrarian South. In essence, the North continued to benefit from the existence of slavery even after abolition--if not from free labor, then from the profits gained by selling that labor in areas where it was still legal."

You attempt to conflate practices that did happen sometimes as if they were the majority, the only and/or the common practices in the North, together with the supposition that only economics and never sentiment or philosophy played a role in those practices. The facts are that the North was closer than the South was to Fngland, intellectually, where the abolition of slavery had already been accomplished. There were far mar "Northern" slaves who were simply freed than the numbers that were sold to southerners. As a result, by the time of the Civil War, there were already second and third generations of "freed" African-Americans and their ranks included doctors, lawyers and educators in cities like Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York and Boston. What you include in the acts of minorities of whites in the north is disputed by how the entire framework of slavery held no majority, politically or popularly in the North. That, not individual acts, is the distinction that made the political and hisotrical difference.

"It should be noted that the abolitionist movement had little to do with taking a stand against racism. In fact, many abolitionists themselves looked upon those they were trying to free as inferior, uncivilized human beings. Yes, racism was rampant in the northern U.S. as many states had laws restricting the ability of blacks to vote, travel, marry or even own land."

Again, you try to point to the exceptions in the north as though they were a dominant theme, comparable to the south, which they were not. I am sure there were instances of "abolitionists" who saw African-Americans as "inferior", yet the historical facts of the movement and the majority who worked in it do not, and did not historically, support such sentiment. Again, the difference in how local laws applied to "slaves" and "freed slaves", between the north and the south is that the use of such local restrictions were in great decline in the north while they were being held fast in the south. Those who wanted them ended were winning in the north while those who wanted them preserved were holding fast in the south. The fact that a minority of people in the north held to the same views as the majority in the south, does not change the fact that the majority of the nation was moving against that view.

"This animosity exhibited toward blacks in the North may explain why the Underground Railroad, long before passage of the Fugitive Slave Act, ran all the way to Canada."

The Underground Railroad went all the way to Canada because until slavery was abolished everywhere, local law enforcement in the northern states did not have the support of the courts to ignore the legal "writs" of southern "owners" trying to retrieve their "property". It was not due to popular or legal support for slavery in most northern states, but the lack of legal means to void the "legal" claims of southern owners who pursued their "property" into the north. In fact, this was one of the activities that helped turn more northerners against slavery and against the south; the majority wanted the legal protection to ignore the demands of the pursuing southern owners and their hired bounty hunters.

"In language far more explicit than its U.S. counterpart, the Confederate Constitution included an outright ban on the international slave trade: "The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same."

This was not done to end slavery in the south. The population growth of the "slaves" in the south was thought to be enough to sustain southern industrial needs. Importation of "foreign" "slaves" would only have cheapened the human "capital" of the existing slaveowners. If the actual sentiments of Southern leaders were as you mistate them to have been, there would have been no war, because they would have accepted the compromise that required all the newly forming western states to be "free" states. The facts are that the southern leaders wanted slavery to be able to expand into the new states and the political dispute of that issue is one of the things that lead to the war. Again, slavery, and specifically the right for it to expand into the new states was one of the issues the south was fighting for. That is the historical, unrevised, record.

Maybe the rest of the country would accept many attributes of "southern" political "culture", if those who want to pomote that "culture" would do as the Germans have tried to do and acknowledge the deep human error (slavery) that the south fought to preserve. You can mince words and site northern exceptions and rights that states do not have and Lincoln's abuses of power and many other things. None of those things can hide what the south fought to save - slavery. And, after the war, slavery was ended, period.

I think most people in the cultural "north" are ready to look past that era. But every time popular sentiment seems to be going that way, some southern apologists starts to offer excuses for the underlying roots of the war, and then the north goes back to wondering if it is time to let it go.

159 posted on 06/13/2005 8:57:11 AM PDT by Wuli (The democratic basis of the constitution is "we the people" not "we the court".)
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To: Wuli
... Lincoln was philosophically opposed to slavery.

Lincoln was opposed to sharing the continent with blacks. He never thought blacks were his equal.

The 10th Amendment does not provide for a right to secede from the Union;

It doesn't prohibit it does it? Specifically, it prevents the Federal government from claiming such (no delegation of any such power), and specically it reserves such to the states (not being prohibited to them).

... it [the Constitution] is a contract between the people of the United States, all the people of the whole nation.

Not as an amalgamtion of people - the motion to submit the Constitution for ratification to the people en masse did not even receive a second.

178 posted on 06/13/2005 9:34:11 AM PDT by 4CJ (||) OUR sins put Him on that cross. HIS love for us kept Him there.(||)
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