Posted on 06/13/2005 4:41:07 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
It matters not if they were in another state, or if they are of our time or from another. We are entitled, and in fact compelled, in the study of history to look at words, deeds and context in making our judgments.
I'd point to Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech as an example. By all accounts, Stephens was a nice man, a very intelligent man, a "Patriotic American". Lincoln and Stephens considered each other to be friends from their days in Congress together.
Yet when push came to shove, Stephens used his considerable powers of persuasion to proclaim that the signers of the Declaration of Independence were mistaken in their belief that "all men are created equal" under the law. He flatly rejected that fundamental, yet unfulfilled promise of 1776, and declared that slavery was the very "Cornerstone" of the Southern Confederacy. He said that instead of slavery being inconsistent with our principles, that our principles were wrong and that slavery was a positive good.
It is not about imposing 21st Century morals on a 19th Century politician. It is about measuring the 19th Century man against not only the custom of his time, but the standard set by our 18th Century founders. I wouldn't condemn Stephens for "racism" for not accepting social equality we now expect, as the neo-confederates hypocritically condemn Lincoln. I would not even condemn him for tolerating or embracing the perfectly legal and common practice of slavery as the neo-confederates habitually condemn Grant or other "Union Men" who owned slaves. It is the fact that Stephens and his fellow Confederate leaders allowed the profits of slavery to seduce them into rejecting the very core of the American idea --- a dangerous thing not just for slaves, but for free men as well.
In that regard, Stephens, and the other fathers of the Confederacy do not measure up, not to our standards, but to the standards of the Founders they pretended to admire. There is little to admire in those men.
You are correct in all the points you made. My gripe is that those of the Northern persuasion often assume an attitude of superiority and look upon all Southerners as bigots and racists. Yes, we have had our share, but no more than any other place. Besides, we stayed in the South to fight racism while most Northerners looked on from the sidelines. The following is a true story.
During the 1960's, when I completed my first enlistment in the army, I needed a break. I returned to the South to work until I decided to reenlist. In this particular workplace we had a variety of people, including African-Americans and members of the KKK. I became friends with an African-American co-worker who was, like me, a veteran. Some of my KKK co-workers resented that, and I soon began to hear rumors that I might suffer an "accident" in the work area.
One day, out of sight of everyone else, the self-appointed leader of the KKK contingent accosted me and started berating me about being friends with the African-American veteran. The confrontation quickly became physical. Unfortunately for the KKK gentleman, he forgot that I was a veteran and that the army had taught me a large variety of ways to kill someone. In a couple of seconds the KKK member was on the floor, holding his arm and screaming that I had broken it. I leaned over and in very measured tones told him that if he ever got in my face again his arm would be the least of his problems. Nobody at that job ever bothered me again.
The moral of the story is that the next time anyone thinks that all Southerners are racists and bigots they should think twice.
Clue ~ get an education first; then get back to us.
Please provide some examples.
The way I look at it my people were merely trying to set right the evils done to America by European slave runners.
That's hardly an act of rebellion.
I think it's more BoBo than Northern, for the most part. Many of the northerners here, for example, I think are just rubbed the wrong way. Because, from one very viable perspective, the Confederates WERE traitors. Just like the American founding fathers are from an old-school Canadian perspective. For them, it's not a comment about Southerners than a real despising of the Confederacy, and what it stood for in their eyes (unless I am mistaken, in which case I beg apologies) such as slavery (obviously first and foremost), that the US is nothing more than a temporary marriage of convenience, the idea that the US will break up, etc.
Your anecdote is inspiring, though, and much more convincing (to me personally) than arguments about what the Confederacy really stood for. Because for me, its about what the South stands for now. And most Southerners I have met and talked to date have greatly impressed me. Standing up for a fellow veteran, whatever the colour of his skin, says more about the Southern character being great than running the Confederate flag up a post. It says that the South keeps American virtues and values alive, even under pressure, and the virtue of its citizens such as you displayed are what makes the South great.
It was finally disposed of by good people, some of whom were descendants of Abolitionists who fought running gun battles with slavers along the Ohio and in Kansas.
That's just to let you know that Northerners aren't always taking on an air of "moral superiority" to Souvrnr's ~ sometimes they are simply judging the matters raised in any discussion of the causes and conditions related to the Civil War.
Also, it's to let you know that when it came to the Klan, the South simply did not have the wealth to foster the development of a really, really large and powerful Klan. It was always second rate to Northern racists.
In reading some of the posts on this thread I am reminded of sitting in the swing on the veranda in the evening, watching a beautiful Southern sunset and listening to the wind rustle through the mimosas as I nurse a glass of bourbon and branch. I am at peace with the world. Then suddenly I hear a gnat buzzing around my head. Do I put down my drink, get up, grab a flyswatter, and smack the gnat, or do I just let the gnat keep buzzing? I'm enjoying my drink, so the gnat can buzz away.
But you let that gnat around my Moon Pie I'll be hitting you up side the head with a bottle of Nehi.
Lotsa nuggets in that baby Fur Shur.
Yes you should see it ... it is a place of reverance and honor
That's not the battle flag, that's the naval ensign. You would think the SCV would know the difference.
If anyone had a claim that their "states rights" were being tampered with in 1860, it would be the Free States which had abolished or limited slavery and those territories who wished to come into the Union as Free States. They were being told by the Federal courts and by Federal marshalls that the South's [chattel] property rights trumped their own State laws.
After participating in the Constitutionally held election in the fall of 1860, the South walked out, even though their "peculiar institution" enjoyed Federal protection from Mississippi to Maine at the time.
of the 40+ males in the office, she said that about 1/2 were "sissies" & the other half, married or "not interested at ALL in women".
you figure it out.
free dixie,sw
until that UNlikely occurrence, expect more rancor & conflict.
we southrons/southerners will NOT yield to the HATERS, leftist LOONIES, liars, fools & anti-Southern BIGOTS that call themselves "unionists" on FR.
free dixie,sw
Thank you for your thoughtful response. And although it's been almost forty years, I still get a smile on my face when I think of the Ku Kluxer on the floor. Maybe his arm still hurts every now and then.
lolol - I can see it all now :)
Traitors? The United States Navy doesn't name its vessels after traitors and it doesn't decorate them with the motifs of a flag of rebellion...
And yet.....
The U.S.S. Robert E. Lee
http://www.ssbn601.com/
http://www.subnet.com/fleet/ssbn601.htm
The vessel's launch program features two likenessess of the great general in Confederate uniform, and includes a short, very positive biography of Lee that describes his notives as honorable. The word "traitor" appears nowhere in the bio....
http://www.ssbn601.com/Commissioning_menu.asp#Launching
I doubt most unionists are anti-southern bigots. They just feel strongly about this country. Accusing people of being haters and bigots, like the lefties do, does not help your case. Southerners are Americans. You might have a different culture, but if you call yourself a Confederate before an American, then chalk me up to the haters and bigots and whatnot.
Can you understand that the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, sacred though it may be, and for good reason, intensely scares and offends many people?
Scared because of all the disinformation they've been fed over the years. As for the pro-union folks being anti-southern.... some here clearly are.
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