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To: walden
You would have to clarify what you mean by "religion permeating government." To anyone who truly understands Christianity, our very form of government and our constitution are already, and were at their inception, permeated by Judeo-Christian values.

You're absolutely right. Context is everything and you may want to read on in this thread, because the question raised was not truly in context. It will take much more than a simple one line sentence to clarify the separation issue that we have been discussing in this thread.

The very idea of freedom for the individual is predicated God's creation of each of us in His image, and endowed with free will. If God creates us free, then what warrant can there be for any of us to be enslaved by man?

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the first part as none of us can be sure. But as for the last sentence, of course, I agree. But I'm sure you know that historically that's not always been the case, nor have Christians always looked on "freedom" in the same fashion.

Furthermore, our separation of the branches of government and the balance of powers between them is explicit recognition of the fallen nature of man, how each of us carries Adam's sin, and so all will sin. Consequently, none of us can be completely trusted with absolute power.

Well, we can at least agree that man is imperfect and as such created institutions to filter out our imperfections. Our particular governmental institutions were created to ensure justice, a prerequisite to society. As for absolute power, of course, it is antithetical to justice. But I doubt these very religious men created what they did from any thoughts of Adam and original sin; rather certainly it came from the fear of a theocracy, a knowledge of the weaknesses of a monarchy, a strong sense of justice, and a study of the political philosophies of the time, not the least of which were the writings of Montesquieu.

The very idea of this country, and every value it was founded on, is biblical. If you don't believe me, compare us to any Islamic country, any communist country, and any other non-Christian country that exists or ever existed. Not all are malignant, but none has ever valued the individual as ours does.

I don't disagree with you in general. I think you took one question I posed out of context and then presumed an entire political and religious philosophy around me. But again, while this country was founded by religious people, it was not founded as a religious government, but rather one that recognized the importance of religion (all) to society, that freedom means the freedom of choices, and understood that secular and religious principles are not mutually exclusive.

90 posted on 07/01/2005 5:50:47 AM PDT by MACVSOG68
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To: MACVSOG68
"But I'm sure you know that historically that's not always been the case, nor have Christians always looked on "freedom" in the same fashion." In every generation, there are self-described Christians who either do not read their whole bible, or who read it but decide that they can ignore some parts, while picking out of it only what supports their preferred view of how the world should work. Our age is no different. But it is interesting to note that the population of this country around the time of the Revolutionary war was the most biblically literate that has ever existed anywhere at any time.

And, I have a sneaking suspicion that God does not look kindly on those who use His word to support their own will to power.

94 posted on 07/01/2005 6:53:28 AM PDT by walden
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