Posted on 05/28/2005 11:26:17 AM PDT by RWR8189
Not a bit. I must admit, the part starting from "Come on... offends me a bit. I don't think it's good to refer to the Savior as JC. Big difference--he was the Savior. It would have been the Pharisees whom I would criticize today.
The Bible doesn't advocate according koolaid-drinkers "respect," no matter how sincere their chugging may have been! Nor does it say to leave the judging of religious beliefs up to God alone.
I don't see any Koolaid analogy. The Savior will be the one who will do the final judgement, not us. That's the judging I am referring to. I prefer to try to make sure I live a Christlike life first. Yes, I have more weaknesses and faults than one could count and fall short many times, but I keep at it. Maybe one of these days I'll get it right.
The Bible has many words that describe discernment and wisdom. It also says in 1 Thess 5:21: "Test all things. Hold fast to that which is good."
That is one of my favorite scriptures. Through faith, discernment, and the Holy Spirit, then we can "hold fast to that which is good." Things like contention, gossip, lying, etc. are among those things which are easily so defined. If someone is pious on Sunday, but engaged in other things on other days, then....oops I'm judging here:).
I remember one time when my wife and I were having a picnic. There were these teenagers that started doing some weird stuff off in the distance. Something told me to "get out now!" We both bolted and took off in the car just as the teenagers started running towards us. I don't know what the real circumstances were, just that something told me that something really evil was there.
If you ne'er make judgment calls as to what beliefs are sound, and which ones aren't, then you've just disobeyed this precept. I can say I probably make judgement calls on beliefs all the time. I'm not riding off into the sunset to join the Wahabbi (sp?) crowd. But again, it can come through the Holy Spirit, the scriptures, faith, etc.
I respect many fine ministers, evangelists, preachers, pastors, fathers, priests, etc. and their messages. My town in fortunate to have some of them. They do wonderful things and are powerful forces for good. There are some fringe elements that can delve into some areas so much that that becomes their "religion" as such.
I was working at a store one time when this large man suddenly appeared. He said, "You don't believe in Jesus Christ, do you?" I replied in the affirmative. He then went into a tirade condemning my belief. I did stand firm, but I must say, I felt a lot of evil in the man.
Jesus did say to love our neighbors, love our enemies, to do good to them which do bad to us, and so on. That doesn't mean to consort with such, but I think that it does mean that we don't become like our enemies and demonstrate similiar behavior. We should be steadfast in what we believe and be ready to defend it though.
The Savior said to forgive 70 x 7. That's a lot of forgiving. For years, I couldn't even begin to do that to people who wronged me. Now, I'm starting to, but I have a long way to go.
Yes, we can judge in this life and there are many kinds of judgement, BUT the final decision will not be made by me, but the Savior himself. That's the one I'm concentrating on.
Recently our lib governor in AZ has been trying to visit with our church. She used some Authorities' opinions about SLC's light rail system to try and get LDS legislature members to vote for the light rail system here. Implying they were going against our church. They were still against it. She fails to see that we do think for ourselves.
I was born and raised Catholic. A lot of what my father taught me was from his own Bible reading. I was one of those who thought that the Mormons were some cult. Then I looked into it and found that I already believed a lot of what the church thought.
To add: BTW, I don't mind people with sincere questions. I do get annoyed with those who do hateful backbiting. I think people's spirituality is individual. I do not say why I think your (in general terms) denomination is wrong or not, and expect the same respect for my religion. As Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that."
Since you were brought up in the Catholic church, which of these LDS teachings qualify as what you believe?
That you haven't really been repentant for any given sin unless you've never committed that sin again?
That no human has original sin? -- therefore, infant baptisms are unnecessary. You have your own free agency; no human is born into bondage of sin (despite what Eph. 2:1 & the Psalms say).
That what the entire Christian church -- Catholic and Protestant -- all of their creeds were an abomination before God?
That you get to baptize dead people by proxy?
That there's a "Mom-god" in heaven who has spirit babies?
That Lucipher is the spirit brother of Jesus?
That one of your keys to eternal spiritual exaltation is being married to a Mormon in good standing in a temple marriage? That one day you may become a goddess or god?
That your Father in heaven was first a man before He became a god? That there are countless other gods before him (even though He is one of the few gods for this earth)?
Now, tell me honestly. Which one of these LDS teachings would go over well w/your local Catholic priest?
"There are probably some states where the people would say, 'Hey, we are going to elect you as governor and we don't care if you do something else full-time for two years.' But Massachusetts isn't one of those states ..."
But that the same could be said of its Senators ;)
Actually the arguments against both Al Smith and JFK were that they would have to take orders from the Pope. That proved not to be true, and I believe the same would be true of any Mormon who one day would be elected POTUS. Let us not forget, we are a government of checks and balances so there are limits to any president's powers, much less those who would advise him (or her).
point well made. altho i don't know much about mormonism, i do know that often in history, if your race is being wiped out, you tend to ignore certain things, monagamy and incest for example, to propagate the race.
personally, i hate smoking bans. i am friends with many restaurant owners (none of whom smoke) who oppose the bans knowing that if people can't smoke, they will go elsewhere. bans can be very bad for business.
I don't think a person's religion - unless perhaps they are ISLAMIC, is an issue anymore in America.
Orrin Hatch - forget it. Better yet - forget him. He's a maby-pamby Caspar Milquetoast whimp.
Romney - don't know much about him. His father was a Class A-1 RINO before that term was fashionable though.
People who are Mormons seem to be decent people. The religion appears to produce character and respect in its followers.
Having said that, I find it a little "spooky" in some of its tenets.
Like Joseph Smith, an illiterate backwoodsman finding tablets in gold written in a language only he could decipher. Furthermore, he read them while they were wrapped up in cloth using some kind of special crystal. The there was that matter of Mountain Meadows, and polygamy. And that statement by one of their founders that he was a modern day Mohammad. And the matter of the Mormon "War". And the Book of Mormon itself - it reads like science fiction. And that idea that they can "save" people by getting information on their geneology.
I know, I know, Mormons will say that Christianity and Judaism have some peculiar and paranormal events in it too.
But somehow, I find the ten plagues on Egypt and the tower of fire and smoke and the resurrection of Christ from the dead more buyable than some guy named Joseph Smith talking to an angel named Moroni (Moroni - isn't that somekind of macaroni??) in upstate New York in the early 1800's about a bunch of pre-Columbian people for whom there is absolutely no archeological evidence - none - nada - nichts.
does anyone know where the guy stands on border issues and constitutional rights (specifically 2d ammendment?)
That brings up another similiar topic--alcohol. I am not a drinker myself. I saw one of my best friends die in an accident because of drunk driving and vowed never to touch the stuff. I don't see much redeeming value in it at all, but I guess there are social reasons. Nonetheless, alcohol sales bring in quality restaurants, something my community is in dire need of. The city council (my town is a conservative, Christian town with a decent amount of teetoalers) even recognized this and increased the number of licenses given out to sell alcohol in hopes of luring something besides fast food.
The local tavern here has never given the city problems. The patrons and owners behave themselves and never bother anyone. In well over 50 years there has never been an arrest or accidents by there. They are going to have to close or move because the main road will be widened so I hope that they can continue in business (my mom would not like me saying this by the way). :)
I'm not for a complete alcohol ban either. We've been there, tried that.
Interesting points you have there.
I wonder how the Ainu in Japan are doing. There are very few of them left that are full-blooded.
That seems like buying, "History of the Christian Church" from the local ACLU bookstore.
I like to hear opposing viewpoints and make up my own mind. Make no mistake about it... I have listened, politely, to the presentation by Mormon missionaries, beginning to end.
I have had many positive associations with Mormons (as I have with many Christians) and feel they are generally an upright people, though, like any religion, have some bad eggs in the mix.
I stand by my earlier statement. If the book is written by Jon Not-Kracked-up whatever his name is with a political agenda (using a convicted felon no less), then it can hardly be regarded as an expert resource on the Mormon Church. In fact, it seems to have overtones that the liberals use--"the devil made me do it." That REALLY disqualified it for me.
I really don't buy those arguments like, "I'm this way because of my parents," or "I didn't learn that in school, " or "He started it," or "He made me do it," type arguments. It is our freedom to do what we can with our lives. Our lives are what we make of it.
Quote: "Or, did it mention that the mormon loyalty lies with the church first, with no exception, including loyalty to country? If anyone thinks that Romney would NOT be unduly influenced by the general authorities in Salt Lake you are mistaken." End Quote.
Sorry, but you are the one that is mistaken ... it is the primary concern and mission of the Church itself to teach the gospel, perfect the saints and redeem the dead ... all politics aside ....
Nowhere is this more emphatically expressed than in the "Articles of Faith" which explain what the Church and its membership believe in ... wherein the 12th article it is stated
" We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law."
Carrying out the mission that we believe the Lord has given to the Church and its people is by far more important than the political system one lives under at the current time and we value the freedom we have to do so when and where it exists.
As a church the LDS faith doesn't "mess in politics" ...it doesn't even take available funding from the US government for various things as others are elligible to do, such as within its educational system, which thereby remains free from any government dictates by staying within the realm of a "private institution" that can set its own standards ... yet it welcomes non members that are intent on their chosen fields of study.
Additionally, If you knew your LDS History, you would know that the "Mormons" were first welcomed with open arms in the State of Illinois, due to the same kind of gross misconception that it was believed that they would "vote as a block" ... but when it was discovered that the issue of casting one's vote was left by the Church leadership, for each person to study the issues at hand and vote their own concience, that both the Church and its membership fell out of political grace with the powers that be in State government.
With respect to the issue at hand, I merely wish that the various posters would adopt the same ruling principle as the LDS express in the 11th of those Articles of Faith ... to wit
"We claim the priviledge of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own concience, and allow all men the same privildge, let them worship, how, where or what they may."
Nowhere in the annals of either politics or religion has there ever been such a clearly stated separation between Church and State, and this also answers the question of how Mitt Romney can claim to be LDS and yet express himself as he has on many issues ...
This too is a gross misconception ... as a politician, one may be called upon, in accordance with their oath of office, to protect and defend the Constitutional rights that are guaranteed to every American citizen under existing law, though one may not personally agree with them, or even endeavor to change them thru due process of law.
The point that is being missed here on "Free Republic" is this ... if you do or don't believe in something, then the place to express yourself is within the structure of the politcal system itself ... write your congressman ... and don't tell this "Older Timer" that it does no good because I am a frequent correspondent with my own elected representatives and know different, as I have personally benefitted from their services to myself and my family on numerous occasions.
Let me add this ... the only person that would wish for you to NOT contact your elected officials are those that oppose your views ... as those same views are given a very heavy weight by those holding public office.
And when the chips are really down ... how many of us are registered to vote and go to the polling places on election day to make our will as a citizen known ? Relatively few I am ashamed to say ... most of our Presidents are chosen not by a true majority but by a plurality... and it could be so much different if we only chose to make it so as individuals.
The real place to change opinions so that everyone sees things your way is within the confines of your own family and the four walls of your own home... if, for example you want your children to grow up to believe in abortion, but not same sex marriage, or believe in the right to keep and bear arms, but not in the right of the BSA to ban gay leadership ... then feel free to teach them these things and the guiding truths and principles behind your decsions and let them spread those opinions throughout the land as they become of age to elect leadership accordingly in their own cities, counties, states and the nation.
Nothing good will ever come of bashing the religion of another person in this nation, save the degredation of the 1st Amendment. If we start down that garden path, then it will be open season on every individual that runs for public office and we can bash everyone equally until our hearts content ... and become the kind of nation that in our heart of hearts nobody wants to become.
A true student of religion knows thatt all religions have in their past history some element that they are not necessarily proud of, be they Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, LDS or otherwise ... so ... where shall we "let the bashing begin?"
Shall it be with those that testified falsely against Christ, though He were one of their own?
Shall it be with those who in the name of their religion caused the false accusations, the torture and pain and suffering of the innocent, before committing them to the flames at the stake?
Shall it be with those who turned their back on the "official" church of their nation because they wanted to do what they wanted to do in their private and lustful lives and had the politcal power to disavow that church and create one of their own liking?
Shall it be with any one of a thousand others that have similarly abandoned former alliances with a "mother church" due to the individual ideals of some portion of thier memberships being opposed to and protesting against certian doctrine?
Shall it be members of families that once held residence In Salem, MA, who in their time and history, persecuted unto death, others who had false witness borne against themas being "witches" ?
There is no end to whom we might choose to bash or for what reason... I travel a route along a backwoods highway in the Southern part of this nation where there is a little white church virtually every mile ... not because of any particular convenience to their individual memberships... but because of individual differences and personal interpretations of the Holy Scriptures ... and I personally know this to be the case as I have a relative that is a minister within just one of those tiny off shoots of a major religion.
My admonition to you is to study the issues and vote for the person that is obviously best suited for the job of being the next president of the United States ... that is the focus of intelligent selection of leadership - not wheather or not they have a wart on their behind.
As to myself, time will only tell until Nov 2008 comes along as to whom I may personally believe to fill that bill, their personal choice of religious beliefs notwithstanding ...
After all, isn't that what LDS have actuallyt been doing for years ? And truthfully, isn't that what we all should be doing, in putting our collective will and well being as a nation above individual differences of all kinds ... religion being just one such difference among many ?
It makes me want to puke in my old age to see polls that indicate that someone is being voted for "as a block" by ANY group ... which indicates to me how little people, as individuals, exercise their own right to be actively engaged in truthfully studying issues or selecting candidates that are truely best suited for the job at hand.
Such is the case at hand in this post ... if you believe what has been mis stated at the beginning ... then it would be a case of simply following uniformed leadership, without having honestly investigated what has been said to the fullest of your own abilities to do so.
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