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Old Foes Soften to New Reactors
The New York Times ^ | May 15, 2005 | FELICITY BARRINGER

Posted on 05/15/2005 8:06:54 AM PDT by ricks_place

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To: America's Resolve; ricks_place
My point was that what seems better on paper doesn't always work out that way. Rarely, actually.

All safety systems depend on "the laws of physics", meaning physical principles. The problem with physical principles is rarely the principle, it's their application.

You are right, no system is safer than the training and experience of its operators. I doubt airbags and crash tests are worth more than an alert, experienced and sober driver.

21 posted on 05/15/2005 12:39:23 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (What's 17% of 155 words?)
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To: America's Resolve
...if the human element falls apart...

The whole point of "inherently safe" reactors is that they do not depend upon human elements or hardware or a control mechanism. The "inherently safe" reactors depend only upon physics, the laws of nature.

Just as a rock does not fly off the earth due to gravity "inherently safe" reactors do not meltdown due to physics. Specifically adiabatic temperatures, material melting points, heat transfer properties, and so forth.

22 posted on 05/15/2005 12:48:01 PM PDT by ricks_place
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
All safety systems depend on "the laws of physics", meaning physical principles. The problem with physical principles is rarely the principle, it's their application.

Certain physical principles are pretty much immutable - rocks don't roll uphill, you can't melt granite over a campfire, etc.

If you design your systems in such a way that the nuclear reaction is equivalent to a rock at the bottom of a well, then there's no human intervention needed to make sure the rock doesn't suddenly climb up out of the well on its own accord.

23 posted on 05/15/2005 1:28:40 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Strange, but back in the 1950's those same leftists were singing the praises of that same nuclear power.

Yes, and in the 1970s they were predicting doom because of global cooling. Here's an article from Newsweek, April 28, 1975.

24 posted on 05/15/2005 1:55:47 PM PDT by stripes1776
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To: stripes1776

Newsweek. What do you expect. Next they will be telling us the Govt is destroying Korans.


25 posted on 05/15/2005 2:20:17 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: ricks_place
We should also be pushing the Fast Breeder Reactor, as well. That basically is a much smarter way to deal with nuclear waste...as both an economic and ecological "multiplier".

It processes and thereby reduces the collossally-long-lived fission byproducts that are otherwise a major storage dillemma. Its output's half-life is measured in the hundreds of years...instead of millenia.

And the design we perfected before the program was completely disbanded had successfully shown off a working prototype design that would be safe in every concievable accidental operations contingency. Coolant failure, control failures, you name it they tested it, and the reactor just more or less automatically shut itself down safely.

Of course, to get the Greens to go along, we do need a much more eco-euphemistic name, as "breeder" somehow connotes something sinister in the average Green-brain. I would recommend something along the lines of "Long-Term Recycling Reactor"...as this is a fix for a long term problem...and it does it by recycling what is otherwise waste from our old-fashioned reactors.

26 posted on 05/15/2005 2:40:55 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”)
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To: MilspecRob
I have never understood this disposal argument - the uranium came out of a whole in the ground.

Put it back.

27 posted on 05/15/2005 2:48:49 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: Paul Ross

We shouldn't kid ourselves - building a fast breeder reactor, which produces 20% more fuel than it consumes - is no small technical challenge. Such efforts have been fraught with difficulties for a very long time, but research and development efforts are ongoing around the world.

Given the price of uranium and reprocessing, it may be just too early for the cost/benefit analysis of breeder reactor technology to make sense.


28 posted on 05/15/2005 2:49:29 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mvpel

We actually perfected the design way back 13 years ago. Then shut the program down. [ Note who would have been President ]. One of the project's main engineers is a FReeper. Forgot his handle though.


29 posted on 05/15/2005 2:55:15 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”)
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To: mvpel

By design, of course, I meant the proof-of-concept prototype. Which would then nearly need scaling and "industrializing".


30 posted on 05/15/2005 2:56:29 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”)
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To: mvpel
And here is the Chinese government plans for the pebble-bed reactor...previously discussed at Free Republic.
31 posted on 05/15/2005 3:02:12 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”)
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To: Paul Ross
Of course, to get the Greens to go along, we do need a much more eco-euphemistic name, as "breeder" somehow connotes something sinister in the average Green-brain. I would recommend something along the lines of "Long-Term Recycling Reactor"...

lol..."Breeder" is a poor name selection ...a derisive name for couples who have children.

"Neutralizing Reactor" works for me. Greens will love the neuter reference.

32 posted on 05/15/2005 3:24:04 PM PDT by ricks_place
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To: mvpel; Physicist
I should also mention that the U.S. program, which has long had a number of fast neutron reactors...the most recent design that I alluded to above, specifically designed to address the waste disposal and plutonium issues, was the Integral Fast Reactor (a.k.a. Integral Fast Breeder Reactor, although the original reactor was designed to not breed a net surplus of fissile material)
[1] (http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/ifr/)
[2] (http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA378.html).

To solve the waste disposal problem, the IFR had an on-site electrorefining fuel reprocessing unit that recycled the uranium and all the transuranics (not just plutonium) via electroplating, leaving just short half-life fission products in the waste. Some of these fission products could later be separated for industrial or medical uses and the rest sent to a waste repository (where they would not have to be stored for anywhere near as long as wastes containing long half-life transuranics). It is thought that it would not be possible to divert fuel from this reactor to make bombs, as several of the transuranics spontaneously fission so rapidly that any assembly would melt before it could be completed. The project was canceled in 1994, at the behest of Bill Clinton's then-Secretary of Energy Hazel O'Leary.

33 posted on 05/15/2005 3:36:10 PM PDT by Paul Ross (Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”)
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To: mvpel
then there's no human intervention needed to make sure the rock doesn't suddenly climb up out of the well on its own accord.

Until there's an earthquake, flood, lightening, hurricane, plane crash,....

The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain...

Research should continue, new approaches studied, it's just that human history continually proves that nature sides with the hidden flaw.

34 posted on 05/15/2005 5:12:15 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (What's 17% of 155 words?)
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To: patton
I have never understood this disposal argument - the uranium came out of a whole in the ground. Put it back.

Well Duh, getting it into the ground is preferable to eating it.

Its all the time it spends on the surface being handled and moved around the country before it gets into the ground that concerns me.

35 posted on 05/15/2005 5:36:46 PM PDT by MilspecRob (Most people don't act stupid, they really are.)
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To: MilspecRob
Wieso, denn? We play with more dangerous stuff on the surface every day.

Look at New Jersey, wsb.

36 posted on 05/15/2005 5:42:04 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

That's why nuclear engineers are schooled in the concept of "Defense in Depth."


37 posted on 05/15/2005 6:13:49 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: patton
Well patton, some of this is also perceived danger. Whats more dangerous...

A truck lost in your neighborhood with a load of Tri Sodium Arsenic?

Or a prison inmate halfway house 1.5 miles from your home?

As a society we handle both, but one gets a lot more air time than the other.

38 posted on 05/15/2005 6:46:23 PM PDT by MilspecRob (Most people don't act stupid, they really are.)
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To: MilspecRob

You have right. It is still silly.


39 posted on 05/15/2005 6:54:52 PM PDT by patton ("Fool," said my Muse to me, "look in thy heart, and write.")
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