[Williams]

Well military historians have criticized the Allies for getting into the war at the wrong time. They should have done it sooner, and maybe later. Perhaps they should have waited until after Germany and Russia fought for a while. The fact is they declared war at a time they couldn't do a damn thing about it. That led to the "phoney war" followed by Hitler conquering France. It was only America that bailed out the Europeans.

Pat's logic is flawed in many ways, but he is asking the basic question of what was gained if after tens of millions of casualties just as many people were under dictatorship as before. In Europe, the main liberated areas were West Germany and Italy.

But Pat is wrong in so many ways. First, the rest of Europe has been liberated now. Would that have been possible with Hitler? What if Hitler had conquered Russia? Certainly he would have taken France next and probably Britain and the U.S. And Hitler seems to have been far more aggressive than the Soviets. Pat seems to have missed that Hitler felt his ultimate enemy was America.

But Pat's right that the European allies screwed up their handling of the war, and probably of the post war.

[Betaille]

"Certainly he would have taken France next and probably Britain and the U.S."

Exactly. To the extent you defend Pat it is based on the theory that Hitler really did only want Poland, which as you know is false.