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To: crail
I am sorry to reply so late, but from 9 to 5 my office is pretty much a madhouse and it is hard to get much else done. In response to your post, which read:

If our assumption is that god can make anything happen at any time by miraculous means, then there is no reason to search for pattern.>>> The answer, or at least MY answer to this, is that there is no TRUE distinction between the "natural" and the "miracle." Both are the supernatural "interventions" (for lack of a better word) of a sovereign Creator who is always involved from the subatomic outward with every element of His creation. What we describe as the "natural" world, a biblicist would describe as the normal everyday activities of a sovereign Creator over and in His creation. A believer in the biblical God would deny that there are "natural" laws which exist and function apart from the sustaining and energizing power of the Creator/Sustainer. From the function of your autonomic nervous system, giving you breath, to the gravity that keeps you in the chair while you type, all are the activities of God, and would cease to exist apart from Him. I would define them as "miracles" that we have become accustomed to. The fact that we have figured out the patterns by which the God of order sustains his creation makes them familiar and we call these "natural laws," as though they operated on their own....., a sop to the naturalists. Even in this "natural" world, though, we still do not understand Smalls forces, which overcome electromagnetic repulsion in the nucelus of atoms, nor why a raindrop violates the laws of physics in remaining a droplet, rather than breaking up, nor why a bumblebee violates the known laws of aerodynamics and flies, nor why red shifts show us that the rate of expansion of the universe is INCREASING, thus fucking up every known model of dating the universe we have..., (and no, I am not a young earth advocate) along with myriad other things that should humble us as we approach the mysteries of a universe that is, in the words of Hopkins "charged with the Glory of God." You see, that is my world view. Within that world view, the activity of creation ex-nihilo, or creating sentient beings out of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen calcium, and hydrogen (with trace elements), or redeeming a universe in cosmic rebellion against Himself are not "miraculous" in that they are supernatural invasions of the natural, while otherwise the natural just chugs along on its own. They are "miracles" only in the sense that they are rare and sometimes of stupendous cosmic significance. What you (pardon the assumption, but I do assume you think this way) call the "natural" I would call the ORDINARY SUPERNATURAL, and ascribe what are called "scientific laws" to the general repeated and repeatable activities of God in His Creation. THIS was the worldview within which modern science was originally birthed. It is light years from the charges from naturalists that a supernatural world view in the science lab kills science, suspends scientific curiosity, or provides a "bail out" of "well, lets just say God did it, put up the test tubes and pray, shall we?" A biblical scientist may in fact be driven to an almost fanatical obsession with his research because he views discovery of the cosmos as an avenue to discovering about his Creator. Science becomes an act of worship. Please don't allow yourself to sneer too quickly (assuming you are tempted to do so) at this picture. Anyone who has ever read the public lecutures of Michael Farraday or the notes of Johannes Kepler knows that these two giants viewed science in PRECISELY this manner, and I doubt that any Freeper could hold a candle to the intellectual prowess of either.

Science done in THAT framework has no problem with saying, "hmmmm. the evidence here points to a creator who left his mark all through creation, and although I cannot dissect the spiritual, I can see that my dissections confirm what I already believe about the spiritual"

Sorry for being so long winded, but I am trying my best to answer your question.
442 posted on 05/10/2005 3:08:08 PM PDT by chronic_loser
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To: chronic_loser
Science becomes an act of worship. Please don't allow yourself to sneer too quickly

I wouldn't sneer at that. I was just talking the other day about that... that Muslims used to have that view. The universe was god's creation, and if you want to know him, go out and understand what he spent so much effort building. Unfortunatly, that part of Islam changed, and there's not religion left with that viewpoint. From _my_ experience you are unique in not seeing a good understanding of the natural world as a threat to religion, especially among creationists.
507 posted on 05/11/2005 3:03:47 AM PDT by crail (Better lives have been lost on the gallows than have ever been enshrined in the halls of palaces.)
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