Posted on 05/07/2005 10:32:50 PM PDT by Former Military Chick
Most would say if you broke the law, than you should pay the piper. From there comes the varied legislature from all over the country of what crimes deserve what sentences. Somehow I get the feeling the military justice system is a bit different.
I cannot even fathom not being able to take a soaking bath. To cultivate my garden, to make my salsa. Not to have quiet. Actually, that would unnerve me to no end. The noise, lack of privacy. Were you able to keep your light on in individual cells? The daily routine, if lucky enough to have a job, were you required to do work? Beyond fitness, what other ways were you able to pass the time? While I am not a fan of fast food, not having the ability to have such a luxury would drive me nutty, or a beer.
There are so many consequences to our actions. As you said many of the folks who end up there are young and their lives have ended. I wonder if there is way for you to mentor someone who is about to leave the USDB?
My former attorney was a JAG officer at USDB, I recall him sharing some of his tales, the one thing he said, and I found it striking that despite the fact you are reduced in rank, the officers and enlisted still treated each other with said protocol. I found that a bit far fetched but perhaps you can shed some light on that?
As you talk about the living conditions and where folks faired with their custody it is hard to think that is still in place in the new facility as it is much different from the old building(s).
The old one had the separate buildings that appeared to employ the prisoners. You can purchase items made by the inmates such as the boxes for flags, to be given to a family after the funeral.
The other thing, if I recollect, did the prisoner's work with pigs, sheep or goats? They are all around within the Post and I thought maybe that has something to do with the prison.
I am sure I will think of other things to ask but I will close for tonight. Again thank you.
I had posted another thread a while back about the demolishing of the Castle.
I have taken photo's of what is remaining and also found other photo's for folks to see.
There is a also a former inmate (exDBinmate) who has graciously offered to provide insight inside those stone walls. Check out comments 99 to current if interested.
I don't have an ex-inmate's up close and personal view of the workings of the DB, however, I worked there for three years. I worked on the third floor of the south gate building. We had all our office luncheons/promotions/retirements in the south gate visitors room.
The three years I was there (1977-1980) held some changes in the system. We did have women inmates confined there. Oh, not for long of course. They would manage to get pregnant within weeks of arriving usually, then would be discharged because of their pregnancy. One woman who was physically unable to get pregnant actually filed a Congressional complaint over it since she was going to have to serve her sentence.
Also, it was nothing to see "trustees" in the local bars on weekends. We had an office Christmas party one year that pretty much moved to a bar later on and the "trustees" were actually so bold as to ask us to dance.
It wasn't called Boy's Town for nothing, I guess! :)
In the time period I worked on Fort Leavenworth things changed drastically. There is no comparison to how the Post looks now as to how it used to look. The money/manpower are just not there to maintain it.
As to the new DB, we were taken on a tour just before it opened. It reminded all of us of a motel more than a prison. The individal cells have windows to the outside, as well as windows through their doors. TV's (with cable naturally) are strategically placed throughout the commons area, coke machines, tables and chairs...all the amenities. Its a different world for sure.
bttt cool photos
Thanks again for the ping.
Thanks to all who have contributed to the thread with photos and first-hand accounts. Special thanks to exDBinmate for a look from inside. It must have taken a lot of courage to make that first post.
The military is definately tough on crime. 99% of military prisoners are first time offenders. Remember that you need a High School diploma and no criminal record to get in the military in the first place. I met many young men, 19, 20 years olds who got 5 years or more for writing bad checks!
Same offense in civilian court would have got them probation. The military hands out time like it's candy.
Don't get me wrong though, there is no shortage of people who deserve to be confined at the DB and who, if and when released I wouldn't want as my neighbor.
As for enlisted and officers, I can tell you this; When I was at the DB there was no recognition of military rank. The only rank that mattered was how long you had been at the DB. New inmates were considered "fish". I came in a fish and left as a fish, thank God. You were a fish for a few years at least. It didn't matter if you used to be Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, when you got to the the DB you were just a fish to everyone else. Officers were housed in seperate quarters (6Base?)until their appeals were exhausted which only served to alienate them further from the rest of the inmates.
According to the powers that be, working was a priviledge at the DB. Many inmates didn't share that sentiment however and were content to be locked down the majority of the day (during work call).
Others means of passing time besides working out were playing cards. I learned how to play Pinnochle within hours of arriving in general population at the DB. I also read voraciously. There wasn't always alot to choose from but I read whatever I could get my hands on, from dictionaries to toothpaste tubes.
On the farm, inmates worked with horses and pigs. There was also a greenhouse and tree nursery. Any inmates working outside the walls were either min custody or trustees though. The min buildings and the trustee unit were worlds apart from the castle.
I'm not sure if it was common practice in the Army to call an enlisted Sergeant "sarge" but that is what the inmates called all enlisted personnel regardless of rank. Whether you were an E-1 or a E-9 an inmate addressed you as "sarge". This stuck out in my mind because it is something that would not have been tolerated at a Marine Corps facility. The DB was an easier place to live and do time than the Marine Corps brig though.
As for women inmates, they were there when I was also. They were housed in 7 base and kept seperate from the male inmate population. They were still getting pregnant too. It was not the inmates who were impregnating them either, it was DB cadre. There were also female guards there and they were constantly being dismissed for fraternizing with inmates.
One of the things I remember the most was the influx of 90 day newcomers. They would all come on a Monday in large shipments. They also had the retraining brigade then, don't know if they still have it or how long they had it even. They'd serve their 90 days kinda like being in basic again. Then they'd be shipped off to their new assignment.
As for fraternization, my immediate supervisor (female) was fired for fraternizing with an inmate. She would send us out of the office on some pretense and well...she got caught. That was an uproar to be sure.
It was definately an interesting place to work for a young, somewhat naive, girl!
ping
So that's where my cousin Jack spent his time a couple of decades ago. Just so happens we are Kunz's on our shared grandmother's side. Probably the same name as the "Kunze" who was killed by the other German POWs.
Can't say as I blame 'em much, looking at it from their point of view.
I was doing research for this thread, when I stumbled across that amazing art work that I had posted. Thought you might find my research/photo's interesting. There is also someone who actually was incarcerated in the prison who has also offered some thoughts on what I had found and posted. Just a FYI!!
Where is Bill's room?
ping
Wasn't this incident fictionalized in a made-for-TV movie with Walter Matthau?
What do you think would happen if instead of other countries emptying their prisons & sending their unwanted citizens here (Cuba), that we did the same without the benefit of due process! Just one more thing to make us unpopular!
Just reading this post for the first time & finding it very interesing. Spent 6 years at Fort Leavenworth as a kid.
The American Bison near Fort Leavenworth may be on federally owned property, but they are actually closer to the Federal Penitentiary rather that the Military Prison (USDB). They were a gift from the Fort Riley heard of bison. Back in the early 80's the mating pair had 2 offspring in the time I had been there. The original gift was 3 bison making the "herd" size a grand total of 5. Sadly 4 of them were found dead one morning. Autopsies were performed, looking for poison in the water, etc. Not sure if the cause of death was ever found. Since then I believe some of the animals were replenished by the folks at Fort Riley.
Bump for interesting history and perspectives.
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