Posted on 05/07/2005 8:05:03 AM PDT by churchillbuff
Oh dear. I'd better pray longer.
I'm finding myself agreeing with virtually all of one of your posts! Jesus must definitely be coming soon. LOL.
My definition is 'the heart'.
Beep. Wrong answer. "Spiritual" sounding, but false. Like the devil, an entirely spiritual entity.
Many Americans are practical unitarians, unable to see collective entities, especially the God-ordained Oath-confirmed, representatively-structured entities of church, family, nation. It's a long story, and at this point, I'd be trying to describe a Rembrandt to a blind man. Good starting point to consider, though: the God of the Bible, the Trinity, is plural and well as singular. God Himself is the Ultimate Community. The idol of the statists is the "Great Community/Society," defined in political terms.
He basically wrote a whole paper about linear extrapolations.
A math genius he ain't. :)
I am happy to hear that more people than ever are hearing the good news, though.
Oh thank you, great arbitrator of spirituality. The 'holy trinity' is rod, reel and line for fish eaters.
If you want to know more facts regarding the underground church growth in communist and muslim countries, go to www.persecution.com and sign up for their newsletters. It is absolutely amazing to me that the christian community in the US is completely ignorant of the daily persecution, wrongful imprisonment and murder of christians in other countries. I have a dramatically different view of christianity and the early church after my introduction to the reality of persecuted christians in other countries several years ago. As is evident from the New Testament, explosive spiritual awakening flourishes under persecution.
I wish the website was more up-to-date as most people tend to think there must not be much persecution happening if there aren't current reports posted. If anyone would like more information, I am happy to scan the stories from the current newsletters that I have and send them to you.
This is just a small, out-of-date, handful of the hundreds of stories regarding the growth and persecution of underground churches in communist and muslim countries.
In 2003, a North Korean army general was shot and killed by a fellow officer for evangelizing to his unit. Many other Christians are currently facing similar situations of execution or imprisonment for sharing their faith, owning a Bible, or for no explanation at all. Yet sources say that these are "very strong believers" and they refuse to deny their faith, even in the face of torture and death.
According to reports from former government officials and prisoners, like Soon-Ok Lee, treatment of religious prisoners is much more severe, particularly for Christians. In her book, Eyes of the Tailless Animals, Soon-Ok Lee partnered with VOM to share the stories of horror and the steadfast faith of Christians in a North Korean prison.
Imprisoned Christians are not the only ones under pressure. The sources also tell of prisoners’ families being threatened or, in some cases, held hostage.
North Korean Christians that were saved in the spiritual revivals in the late 1940’s have played a vital role in the survival of Christianity in North Korea. Sources report that these believers have kept the faith alive by passing down their faith from generation to generation.
There has been no communication with Pastor Zhang since his arrest, but it is believed that he is in custody in the Zheng Zhou area of Henan Province. Zhang is the leader of the Fangcheng Mother Church, Henan and the leader of the China for Christ Church, which is one of the largest house church networks in China, estimated to have more than 10 million members. He has been well known by the international community as one of the house church patriarchs. He is a co-author of the House Churches of China’s Confession of Faith and Declaration, which was published in 1999. He has been featured in a number of international articles and books, including “Jesus in Beijing” (2003) by former TIME journalist David Aikman, Newsweek (12th May 2004), TIME magazine, Charisma and Christianity Today.
Pastor Zhang has already spent twelve years in prison for his faith during five separate detentions since his secret baptism in 1969. He experienced harsh torture, including electric shocks, during his prison terms. His arrest comes in the midst of a serious crackdown on China’s house churches.
The 150-member church was forced to cancel their Good Friday and Saturday night services when the family threatened to kill anyone who came to the church. The Dogar family is apparently seeking to take possession of the land that New Apostolic Church and its graveyard has been located on for the last century.
During the early morning hours of May 23, 2004, Haile Nayzgi was arrested and taken to Police Station #1 in Asmara. He was the leader of Eritrea’s Full Gospel Church, which is comprised of 120 to 150 house meeting groups. The church groups were closed by government decree at a meeting with a government official on May 15, 2003. At that time the church groups were given an application form for government registration. The Full Gospel Church filled out the form and returned it to the appropriate offices, but no reply was ever received.
Haile is married and has four children. He was previously an accountant with World Evangelical Alliance. He is a former mathematics professor at the University of Asmara. During his incarceration Haile has been refused any personal contact with his family. When family and friends went to take food and clothing to the prison for Haile on August 24, 2004, they were told that he was no longer there. Mr. Nayzgi has been moved to various locations since his arrest, but the actual charges against him have not been released. Letters are being directed to the Full Gospel Church for delivery to Haile.
Address:
Haile Nayzgi
Full Gospel Church
PO Box 651
Asmara, ERITREA
During my 3,200-kilometer trip crisscrossing Iraq, I went to seven house-church groups. I met with leaders of these “troublemaker evangelists” from more than 12 groups in three cities and four villages. None of them are content to sit in churches and enjoy their religious freedom by staying inside the building.
An official pastor from another evangelical church in Baghdad said to one of these released Christian leaders, “Don’t think you were in jail because of Christ, it is because you were stupid, evangelizing outside the church walls.” I wish we had more stupid evangelists.
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The one good resource on the website is the VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) bookstore. If interested, you can find lots of books, tapes and dvds designed to educate us westerners about the reality of christianity in other countries. For example:
Jesus in Beijing
David Aikman
Will China’s persecuted Christians become a worldwide missionary force? Discover the faith, and see photographs of China’s major Christian leaders who have survived prison and return to share the gospel. “Visit” secret Bible schools. Why do they exist? “Hear” testimonies from their students. Pray for Chinese unregistered churches that are learning Arabic to evangelize the Muslim world! Learn exactly how and who among the communist atheists formed the TSPM state church with the July 1950 brutally enforced “Christian Manifesto.”
$ 19.00
The Coming Influence of China
Carl Lawrence with David Wang
In the late 1960s, as the cacophony of the Red Guards began to diminish in China, another sound rose. It was the cadence of an army quickly marching not in defeat, but in victory. This army's instruction book had been burned, its meeting halls turned into warehouses or prisons. All had been persecuted. But the more they were persecuted, the more they "fought." After a thousand "battles," they moved into homes, fields and caves to be recharged for the next "battle." They started as 900,000; now they measure in the millions. Welcome to the house church of China. Not only did they profess a faith in Jesus, but they were also willing to die for it. This book has a wealth of testimonies from and insight into today's overcoming church in China.
Thank you for bringing this thread back to the original posting.
Last week I received a newsletter from an old friend whose whole life has been spent as a missionary with the Sudan Interior Mission, a long-standing, evangelical, non-denominational Mission Board.
Field reports indicate that thousands are coming to Christ in Bangladesh, India and China.
Third World missionaries now out number North Americans in this part of the world and the church in China wants to send 500,000 missionaries over the next ten years...the Philipines, 200,000.
In Ethiopia, 120 Muslim men, part of a soccer ministry, were baptized in an unreached (by the gospel, I believe), area. And in a ministry to 30 street girls, 11 were saved.
Rom 16:17-18
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Eph 4:11-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 5:6-11
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Look at all the negativity! You had better believe that I'm a fruit inspector. And just so I'm clear to those about to flame me- my only problem with these churches is that the Word of God is gone and emotion and feel-goodism has taken it's place.
IIRC Andrew or Matthew went that way after the diaspora of the Disciples
Well, I guess I can take comfort in the fact that my favorite translation of the Bible, the New Living Translation, is published by Tynsdale House. ;-)
When we get to heaven, if we, in fact, do, will we be separated into the "baptist" christians, the "methodist" christians, the "first church of xxxx", the "African" christians, the "purpose driven" christians, etc??? NO. This arguing among Christians is lovely to the world - shows just what we are. Thanks for this, really.
John 13:34-35
Romans 12:10
Ephesians 4:2
Hebrews 10:24
1 Peter 1:22
1 Peter 3:8
1 Cor 13
Look these up in any of the 3,000 versions - it should say the same thing to you in any of the versions.
20,000 denominations...Lord forgive us. Satan has succeeded in dividing us.
"In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, in all things, LOVE."
Thank you for the nice comments. I just heard an audio clip by someone (I can't remember right now who it was) that says the "Church Growth Movement" has brought thousands of new people ("Seekers")in, but there are no hard facts or statistics saying how many have actually been saved. The facts do show, however, that 80% to 90% have already dropped out of the "fluff" churches overall.
You are quite observant. Keep thinking (comparing all to ALL of scripture). Too many don't do that and end up with a "purple dinosaur Barney Gospel."
That kind of church doesn't help anyone deal with real evil... in themselves and in their surroundings.
It's good to know that some churches are taking advantage of the opportunity to bring the suffering and persecution of believers in other countries to their congregation's attention. I wish I had heard about it in any of the churches that we used to attend. Seeing this kind of devotion and dying to self is an incredible example (and contrast to what's being preached in today's American churches.) VOM supplies bikes to many pastors to assist them in their travels to spread the word. They also smuggle in bibles that have been translated to their native language.
Speaking in terms that people understand isn't what seeker-sensitive means. For centuries missionaries have been doing as Paul has. But for some reason that isn't good enough for Rick Warren and his ilk anymore. In 90 percent of the cases, it means "don't COMMUNICATE or DO anything that makes them uncomfortable." Paul sure did a lot of uncomfortable preaching. As did Peter.
Imagine this scenario from Acts 2 (originally presented by Bob DeWaay in one of his radio broadcasts which can be heard at http://www.twincityfellowship.com/cic/downloads.php Scroll down to the links to the Radio shows links - the top two are critiques of the Purpose Driven Life. This story/idea is in part 1 of the critique and begins at around 11:20 into the mp3. All of this Bob DeWaay's articles on the subject are right on the mark.
Interviewer: How does this compare to the apostles' preaching?
Bob: Let's just imagine you're back at the day of pentecost, all right? All these Jews are gathered in Jerusalem where Jesus had been recently crucified, and God pours out his Holy Spirit on the people in the upper room. Peter comes out, the people are wondering what's going on and so Peter gets up and preaches to his fellow Jews. Now just imagine... if you have Acts 2 you can read this for yourself what really happened... just imagine Peter got up and says this: "You were created to bring pleasure to God, did you know that?" "Oh, no I didn't know that I was just..." "Well see you don't understand your purpose, if you don't understand your purpose, if you don't understand your life metaphor, how are you going to ever know what your destiny is? Let me explain, why don't you come with us and gather together and we'll have a little group to find out your purpose." Is that what happened on Pentecost? No. What did Peter actually do? For those of you that are in this Purpose Driven thing, you think about this please, it'll do you some good.
Interviewer: Now he was talking to religious Jews who were trying to do the right thing, right?
Bob: They were at Pentecost, they were obedient to that much, they traveled on this Pilgrim feast like they were supposed to do. He got up and he says this to them: "This Jesus ... whom you crucified God raised him from the dead." He indicted them. He told them that you had him crucified at the hands of godless men. This was the Messiah that was promised in the Old Testament Scriptures. This was the one who bodily ascended and sits at the right hand of God. And he indicted them and it says that they were stricken to the heart ... they were smitten in their hearts... they were convicted by the Holy Spirit. And then he said "Repent." He didn't invite them on a journey to find out their purpose, he preached the Gospel, and he specifically addressed what their sin was. Now on that day God saved thousands of people. Now there were many that didn't listen to Peter, and later persecution broke out on the apostles for preaching this kind of message. Stephen got up and indicted his hearers also of being guilty of the sins of their fathers, because they rejected the Holy One. And they stoned him."[end excerpt/transcript]
Acts 2 vv 13, 14: Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
v 22-24
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
v32,33
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
vv36-43
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
If the 'rebuke' is correct, it's rebuke. If it's not correct, it's only accusations from the Enemy.
Do you have a verse for that?
The Secret is not to expect happiness, but contentment.
I dunno... skimming that lady's paper "Complete Deliverance from Sin" (which won't happen until we die...)
Any time someone thinks they have the Holy Grail to living a 'happy Christian life' I think hmm... what about 2 Ti 3:16, 17 "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Hmm... don't see any 'happiness' there....
There are no secrets.
It has been a few years since I read it. She went out of her way to explain that God expected obedience from us, but that we were to trust Him to do the work through us. We repent. We surrender. We trust. God does the rest. That's how I remember it. It may not be exact.
Yes and also that there would be a falling away before the end.
We are in the last days. I look forward to Christs return and rule on earth.
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