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To: Campion
The Church has spiritual authority over the state, not temporal authority.

While in the past that may have been true, the Church's position has generally historically been that it's spiritual authority gave it temporal authority. The conflict between the Papacy and the various secular powers over temporal power is a major theme in European history.

In the United States, the Church has NO spiritual authority over the republic or any of the states (although technically as the Constitution was originally understood individual states could, and did, have established churches as late as the 2nd quarter of the 19th century). The very broadest claim permissible in this country is that the Church has spiritual authority over its members. Not temporal authority. It has no ability to punish members for not acting in accordance with it's dictates other than the threat/actuality of excommunication. Likewise, those whose conscience dictates they should follow Church teachings rather than the law of the republic cannot complain if the republic visits secular punishment upon them for violation of the law.

33 posted on 05/06/2005 2:05:42 PM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Arabiam Esse Delendam -- Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit)
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To: CatoRenasci
Likewise, those whose conscience dictates they should follow Church teachings rather than the law of the republic cannot complain if the republic visits secular punishment upon them for violation of the law.

That is tantamount to the idolatrous worship of the state. If the state is executing Christians for practicing their faith, I have every right, responsibility, and duty to object to that. The state is not God, and has no authority to promulgate or enforce immoral laws.

36 posted on 05/06/2005 2:10:04 PM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: CatoRenasci
In the United States, the Church has NO spiritual authority over the republic

Not according to God.

37 posted on 05/06/2005 2:13:29 PM PDT by Campion (Truth is not determined by a majority vote -- Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: CatoRenasci
The very broadest claim permissible in this country is that the Church has spiritual authority over its members. Not temporal authority. It has no ability to punish members for not acting in accordance with it's dictates other than the threat/actuality of excommunication.

We're in agreement here, CatoRenasci. And this is the only authority that the Church actually claims.

The Church actually has no temporal authority. Can't fire you, can't fine you, can't freeze your bank account, can't take your home, can't put you in prison. "How many legions has the Pope?"

The only power the Church has, claims, or wants, in the public forum, is persuasion. The only power the Church has over her own members is the power to teach, govern, and sanctify. That "governing" includes no temporal coercions: the Church can excommunicate, but on the other hand, anybody who doesn't like it can quit.

None of this is offensive to civil society or to the principles of a nonsectarian constitutional democratic republic.

I'd shake cyberhands with you on that.

104 posted on 05/06/2005 3:39:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (\\\The cafeteria closed. But the food's real good at the Bishop's Table. ///////)
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To: CatoRenasci; Campion; netmilsmom

---In the United States, the Church has NO spiritual authority over the republic or any of the states---

In that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, She has spiritual authority over ALL governments irrespective of their geographic location.

As to temporal authority, Christ instructed us to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

Campion is stating, if I am citing him correctly, that it would have been far better for Kennedy to lose his election not because he would have been indebted to a foreign power, but because his obligation was first to God.

As St. Thomas More said, "I am the King's good subject, but God's first."

Frank


168 posted on 05/06/2005 4:47:55 PM PDT by Frank Sheed
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