Posted on 05/06/2005 1:07:06 PM PDT by Caleb1411
"No one is persecuting Catholics. No one is even removing Catholics from government service."
Tell that to Miguel Estrada. Essentially modern secularism is telling the Catholic, "no judicial appointments, no pharmacy licenses, no medical school or medical licenses for you". That IS persecution, that IS interefernce in our right to the free exercise of our faith, that is (under your belief system regarding honor and an oath) a removal from office.
This is too easy. Because that's not the oath he took!! The oath is to uphold the law, not just to uphold the laws he thinks are OK.
By defining "government service" as upholding laws that are incompatible with Catholic faith, they most certainly are doing exactly that.
Are you saying that the Nuremberg laws would have been okay if they'd permitted Jews to stay where they were, as long as they regularly ate pork barbecue and shrimp cocktails?
The initial phase of the Inquisition was primarily an attempt to purify Catholic doctrine after centuries under Islam. Many of the initial targets of the Inquisition were, in fact, clergy, who were living in concubinage or were teaching false, syncretist doctrine. During this phase, non-Catholics were not even affected by the Inquisition, which extended only to Catholics.
It was a later phase of the Inquisition that became almost entirely political. There there were high-ranking clergy who were involved, and they used it almost entirely as a way of attacking their personal enemies - St. John of the Cross was imprisoned by a vindictive Inquisitor, as were many other Catholics who were out of favor with the political powers at the time.
As for Jews, the motivation in both phases was primarily greed on the part of civil authorities; one of the reasons for the Inquisition with regard to the Jews, whether conversos or practicing Jews, oddly enough, was that mayors and petty nobility were jealous of the privileges enjoyed by Jews under Ferdinand and Isabel (los Reyes Católicos) and this was an attempt to protect them from random seizure of their property and persecution. In other words, authorities had to prove there was actually some case against the people they were harassing.
The Vatican did not profit - the people who profited were the civil authorities, who seized the property and used or sold it.
" However, there is no question that liberty of conscience is a fundamental principle of this republic enshrined in our founding documents. "
And THAT is one of the two truths His Holiness is pointing out. The freedom of conscience to disobey a law that violates the conscience of a Catholic. He is correct in what he says and how he says it.
Viva il Papa!
What kind of law would be sufficiently bad, in your opinion, to merit disobedience?
Who, me? I'm not in favor of forcing doctors to perform abortions. If Catholic hospitals don't want to perform abortions, that's fine by me as long as they're up front with patients about their policies. Likewise with pharmacists.
I think that's one of the reasons that B16 has obviously told the Spanish bishops to stand up on their hind legs right now and encourage Catholics to resist. To hesitate and analyze only lets the State dig in and suppress dissent before it even starts.
I hate to break it to you, but the Pope's views have absolutely no standing under the law of the United States.
but then aren't Catholic doctors also violating their oaths as doctors, which is to provide your patients information about with all options, aren't you remiss
if a drug was developed by using embryonic stem cell research, can you as a Catholic doctor refuse to tell your patient about that drug or refuse to prescribe that drug even if it was the only drug that could cure their affliction [that a big hypothetical because I know full well the biggest advances in stem cell research are using adult stem cells]
though for example in Canada, the government has no problem with allowing Catholic based hospitals to not provide abortions, in fact that decision is left up to every single hospital here I believe...but then in Canada, Catholic schools and hospitals have special status because of the way Canada and its Constitution came to be.....
Well, on the one hand, we should strive for a world in which people are free to pursue what is right and to reject what is evil. On the other hand, it seems improbable that this will be achieved on any large scale, since the New Testament describes Satan as "the ruler of this world."
My own goal is to be prepared for the testing of my faith, and to be worthy of the martyrs who have gone before.
Yes they do. First Amendment. Me and my fellow Catholics have the RIGHT to the free exercise of our religion, we have the right to freedom of speech and we will continue to exercise those rights. Get used to us. We are many and we now have a leader willing to lead.
I understand that; I didn't think you were. My point is that the "liberty of conscience" you're talking about is being badly eroded, right here in the good old US of A. What's going on in Spain is just another example of the same thing.
It's not just government employees, and it's not just going to be Catholics, either. And it's not really about some supposed political loyalty that we owe the Pope. It's about imposing a particular social agenda. That agenda is anti-family, anti-child, and anti-Christian. It's as revolutionary as that imposed by the Nazis, and the people doing the imposition have as little concern with those who suffer because of what they do.
Thank you livius, for your thorough explanation...
Well put.
Great goal, I pray you will meet the test with the Grace of God making your way easy and light.
The bishops have told Spaniards that Catholics may not vote in favor of this law. They are referring, of course, to the legislators, because the Spanish Senate still has to vote on it. Personally, I think 40 years of inaction has taken its toll, and I'd be surprised if Catholic lawmakers actually follow this order. If they don't, I hope they are excommunicated and made to repent publicly.
However, even in the case of a referendum (incidentally, polls show that the majority of Spaniards are opposed to "gay marriage"), you would have the situation where people had entered the government with the understanding that the society they were serving had certain foundations that were acceptable to their educated consciences. If a government changes these things, then it should provide a conscience clause for those who entered it under other conditions. If not, these people should be prepared to resist.
"That was the idea of civil disobedience: that if you break the law, you accept the punishment."
WHY do you assume "The Law" is somehow in a moral vacuum and MUST be right in any given conflict? WHY should ANYONE, religious or otherwise, suffer a test as to the source of his moral code?
If the law is immoral and I cannot escape it then that law and the nation that owns it are in my crosshairs. I'll be DAMNED if I'll "suffer consequences" for it. Men own the law the law does not own men.
The law does not require doctors to provide information; it requires them to provide pills.
Excuse me, I should have said "bill"; not "law". It's not a law yet.
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