"This person suffering from hereditary
defects costs the people 60,000
Reichmarks during his lifetime. People,
that is your money. Read 'New People'."
Posted on 05/05/2005 12:01:28 PM PDT by kjvail
Not if but when, socialized medicine is inevitable, likely will happen the very next time we have a democrat in the White House. Quite possibly 2008.
So now lets follow the reasoning
Government controls access to health care - who pays has the power - your argument makes perfect sense to government bureaucrats far removed from the humanity of the decisions. So rationing will take place - if your life is too "expensive" it will only make sense to put an end to it.
Oh they will advance their sophistry as we have already seen - calling it "death with dignity", "peaceful" and other such nonsense.
This just demonstrates the great divide on the issue, you can't imagine why anyone would think the life of a sick, 92 year old woman with late stage alzheimers would be worth living and I can't fanthom the depraved, utilitarian calculus that you use to arrive at that conclusion. We might as well be speaking two different languages
> So you already admit that if your poor you're SOL?
Well... yeah. It sucks to be poor. Always has. All efforts to amke rich and poor equal have been staggering failues. Look up "Stalin" for further references.
> some lives are more valuable that others
Some lives *are*.
Here are a few choices. You can save "A" or "B", but not both.
1: A boat is sinking, far from land and in choppy seas. "A" is Osama Bin Laden. "B" is you. There is one life jacket. Who do you give it to?
2: A bus is on fire. "A" is a six year old child. "B" is a 104 year old Alzheimers patient who hasn't spoken an intelligible word in ten years. Who do you pull from the flames?
3: You have one bullet left. "A" is your teenage daughter. "B" is the scumbag who's just about to rape her. Who do you shoot (keep in mind: you can always shoot yourself)?
Some lives *ARE* more valuable than others.
> That's not a slippery slope
No, it's not. It's common sense.
> I can't fanthom the depraved, utilitarian calculus that you use
Maybe you might want to take a step back and re-read things before you say such clearly wrong things.
Some lives *ARE* more valuable than others.
So there it is, thanks for being honest. The only question I have is are you a doctor?
Depends on your religion.
> Your reply is pure sophistry
So do you believe that all lives are intrisically equally valuable (or invaluable)? I can only hope that you are wholly opposed to both the death penalty and military action of all kinds, then.
> The only question I have is are you a doctor?
If all lives are equal, what does it matter?
> Depends on your religion.
Sadly true. But even then, not too many religions would hem and haw... except for the pacifist ones. Most people are perfectly capable of seeing that things are not always equal... even if in some cultures they get things backwards.
Resources are limited. That's an unavoidable fact. If you don't like it, go complain to God. Given that resources are limited, it's also an unavoidable fact that every time we spend a few hundred thousand to give someone a few extra months of lousy quality life, that's a few hundred thousand not spent on something else -- all while millions of children in the 3rd World are dying before age 5 every year, for lack of a few cents worth of anti-diarrheal medicine, and a few dollars from some low-paid aid worker to dispense it. Why is a few extra months of some elderly Westerner lying in a bed no longer recognizing friends and family, worth so much that it warrants letting a few hundred African children die before their 5th birthdays?
You say "tomâto." I say "tomäto." You say "triage." I say "murder."
Triage does not involve killing patients, and it doesn't involve refusing to treat patients that can and should be treated. It does not involve separating patients based on your own unrelated biases against certain patients who are the wrong race, gender, religion, eye color, or disability.
Yes I believe that.
I can only hope that you are wholly opposed to both the death penalty and military action of all kinds, then.
No a respect for the inherent dignity of each life does not preclude support for either of these respect for that dignity does not prohibit the actions of justice
It's irrelevant in any case, no one here is talking about the death penalty or any of the other strawmen you have held up.
We are talking about elderly, infirm or incapacitated individuals who presumably have committed no crime or made war on anyone. You are side stepping the issue.
You express an interesting (though hardly original) philosophy regarding life unworthy of life.
Maybe you should look up "utilitarian" in the dictionary before you address that accusation.
You don't need a physicians order for an alcohol bath or ice bags at pulse points.
The " Good" medical people will soon be gone; they grow old too. Watch out for the "whippersnappers"; they're being trained to be "Bad".
What about prisoners with life - terms (this happened recently in California), do they get the same priority on transplant lists as all other patients. A end of life cancer patient has pneumonia, do you treat the pneumonia, or do you just keep the patient comfortable with morphine?
As others have said, "life" today can be continued for decades with artificial medical interventions, but does that always mean it should be?
Personally, no I wouldn't. But I'd think highly of you if you chose to forgo expensive treatment for a very elderly and senile relative, in favor of spending the money on improving the quality of life for other people anywhere who desperately need it. I sure don't want any of my money, or my insurer's money (read: all policyholders' money), or taxpayers' money spent to keep me alive if I'm senile and incontinent and have no realistic possibility of any further enjoyment of life or of helping anyone else to enjoy life.
As has repeatedly been pointed out, those are all straw man arguments. We do not need to ration food and water. There is enough to go around. We do not need to ration antibiotics. We have plenty, and we can make more.
Dear orionblamblam:
I believe, based on your analogies, that you are confusing legimate self defense with the value of individual life, independent of such external circimstances.
- knightshadow.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.