[orionblamblam]

> If there are lab experiments to explain the emergence and evolution of information

Look up the Miller experiments, which demonstrated the production of amino acids from much simpler chemicals, and the follow-up experiemnts by Fox which demonstrated simple physical principles turning those amino acids into proteinoid-based protolife indistinguishable for the oldest microfossils.

> Information is not the message (DNA/RNA)

ERRRR. DNA is self-replicating. DNA is thus both message and messenger.

> autonomy, semiosis, complexity and intelligence

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

We have a fatal inability to communicate, orionblamblam. I am using terms with precise, defined meanings and you are insisting they mean something else.

Information (paraphrased, successful communications)

Claude Shannon is the "father" of information theory: Shannon's Mathematical Theory of Communications

Information theory has been been used in molecular biology for decades. The definition of the term as it is used is as follows:

Glossary of Molecular Information Theory

information: Information is measured as the decrease in uncertainty of a receiver or molecular machine in going from the before state to the after state.

"In spite of this dependence on the coordinate system the entropy concept is as important in the continuous case as the discrete case. This is due to the fact that the derived concepts of information rate and channel capacity depend on the difference of two entropies and this difference does not depend on the coordinate frame, each of the two terms being changed by the same amount."

--- Claude Shannon, A Mathematical Theory of Communication, Part III, section 20, number 3

Information is usually measured in bits per second or bits per molecular machine operation.

It is a very, very common mistake to think of the message itself as information. The content of the message makes no difference to the theory. The elements are:

When we speak of information theory in molecular biology, we are speaking of the entire picture above, not just the message which is the DNA or RNA.

Researchers in this area whom I follow include Schneider, Adami and Yockey.

Autonomy

Autonomy is self-governance. It could be anything from mycoplasma, amoeba, molecular machinery within an organism (like vision), the organism itself, a collective of organisms – like a colony of army ants, hive of bees – or the whole biosphere.

Researchers I’m following in this area include Rocha and Kauffman. Here are some links: Rocha: Syntactic Autonomy and Kauffman: Autonomous Agents

Semiosis

Semiosis is any action or influence involving the establishment or perception of relationships between signs. Semiotics More specifically to biology, it is called “biosemiotics”.

As the above article from Rocha indicates, symbols (such as the DNA/RNA) must emerge along with autonomy to give rise to self-organizing complexity (if that is the complexity form being asserted). For more on the research and investigators: Biosemiotics

Complexity

Here are the two basic types of complexity:

NECSI: Complex Systems

Complexity is ...[the abstract notion of complexity has been captured in many different ways. Most, if not all of these, are related to each other and they fall into two classes of definitions]:

1) ...the (minimal) length of a description of the system.

2) ...the (minimal) amount of time it takes to create the system.

The length of a description is measured in units of information. The former definition is closely related to Shannon information theory and algorithmic complexity, and the latter is related to computational complexity.

And here are various types of complexity:

NIST: Kolmogorov Complexity

Wikipedia: Cellular Automata (aka Self-Organizing Complexity)

Adami: Physical Complexity

NECSI: Functional Complexity

Wikipedia: Irreducible Complexity

Specified Complexity

Principia Cybernetica: Metatransition (a kind of punctuated equilibrium)

Intelligence

Intelligence in a biological sense means memory plus problem solving. This is observed in individual cells - organisms, obviously – and Swarms (or collectives)

________________________

If you follow the links, you will notice that none (AFAIK) of these researchers are anti-evolutionists, Intelligent Design supporters or Young Earth Creationists. They are primarily mathematicians and physicists looking to solve the “unphysical” questions of biological life.

Notwithstanding that, however, I assert that this entire effort outlined above will ultimately destroy the "randomness" pillar of evolution theory: M + NS > Species. At that is the primary objection to evolution raised by Intelligent Design supporters.

So, even though these researchers are not ID, IMHO they will end up accomplishing the same objection through the backdoor.