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To: theFIRMbss
Mixing Sheldrake and Hoyle is like strange jazz because they came to believe kind of opposite explanations for “order” in “our” universe. Sheldrake suggested the past impacts the present through cumulative fields of some nature. Hoyle came to suggest that time was like a river flowing one way but with currents and eddies that sometimes flow backward and Hoyle saw “order” as our present state being acted upon by information from the future through some backward time mechanism.

Thanks for the great comparison/contrast of Sheldrake and Hoyle, TheFIRMbss! “Strange jazz” indeed! The apparent conflict of the two views seems to boil down to the problem of time reversibility. It seems that in our 4D space-time block, time is irreversible, moving from past, to present, to future. Them’s the “rules” that apply to “our” three dimensions of space plus one of time, mainly the result of the action of the second law of TD, whose “arrow of time” points only in one direction.

Yet Hoyle may actually have the better of this “argument,” but only if we may justly recognize the existence of additional temporal dimension(s). My conjecture is that there is at least one more “timelike” dimension, and recently I’ve begun to suspect that there may be others besides. (Who knows? The total number of dimensions may be virtually infinite for all we presently really know.)

A fifth dimension of time would wholly “incorporate” our 4D block; a hypothetical observer “located” in the 5th would view all the “contents” of the 4D block not as a temporal or historical unfoldment (or temporally unidirectional evolution), but as one vast, “entangled” simultaneity.

Information appears to be critically necessary to the evolution of the Universe. But I think “swapping” info back and forth (past to future, or vice versa) along the timeline we humans perceive is a tad awkward. I am more attracted to David Bohm’s notion of the “Implicate Order,” which is sourced in a dimension completely outside of space-time as we know it, but drives everything that happens or could happen “here.” It seems to me the IE would not arise in the 5th temporal dimension, but in yet another “timelike” -- effectively timeless -- dimension.

Just some stray thoughts FWTW.... Thank you so much for your insightful reply, TheFIRMbss!

226 posted on 05/19/2005 10:49:52 AM PDT by betty boop (God alone is Guarantor of an intelligible Universe.)
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To: betty boop
>But I think “swapping” info back and forth (past to future, or vice versa) along the timeline we humans perceive is a tad awkward

Decades prior to
Wolfram's automata work,
French astronomer

turned computer geek
turned UFO researcher
speculated here

that the universe
might be associative
in the manner of

a CPU chip's
addressing mechanism.
One set of "signals"

applied or occur
in one manner and give rise
to a second set

based on the "content"
indirectly pointed to
by the first signals.

Time, then, would appear
sequential really would be
just the progression

of changing pointers
in the "address register"
of the universe.

We become aware
that the sequential facade
is just appearance

when we're confronted
by "non-causal" relations --
the synchronistic

coincidences
that startle us now and then.
This view is open

to testing, via
things like remote viewing where
associative

concentration seems
to generate some manner
of wanted result.

Forward and backward
in time become obsolete,
and get replaced with

some kind plenum
(like the akashic records!)
which we normally

transit in sequence,
but which theoretically
can all be accessed.

229 posted on 05/19/2005 2:23:08 PM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: betty boop; theFIRMbss
Thank you so much for the ping to your engaging conversation on Sheldrake!

We have entertained his views but only briefly and long ago with regard to his research on pets – how they sense the master is fixing to arrive. In actuality, his views are much more inclusive then we considered at that time – and are very, very close indeed to concepts betty boop and I have been raising for quite some time around here.

His website is very informative:

What are morphic fields? How do they fit into your Hypothesis of Formative Causation?

The Hypothesis of Formative Causation states that the forms of self-organizing systems are shaped by morphic fields. Morphic fields organize atoms, molecules, crystals, organelles, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, societies, ecosystems, planetary systems, solar systems, galaxies. In other words, they organize systems at all levels of complexity, and are the basis for the wholeness that we observe in nature, which is more than the sum of the parts. For a more formal definition of morphic fields, see the Glossary.

According to the Hypothesis of Formative Causation, morphic fields also contain an inherent memory given by the process of morphic resonance, whereby each kind of thing has a collective memory. For example, crystals of a given kind are influenced by all past crystals of that kind, date palms by past date palms, giraffes by past giraffes, etc. In the human realm this is similar to Jung's theory of the collective unconscious. For morphic resonance see Glossary. In the realm of developmental biology the morphic fields that shape the growing organisms are called morphogenetic fields; in social organization they can be called social fields; and the organization of mental activity they can be called mental fields. But all these kinds of fields are particular kinds of morphic fields, and all are shaped and stabilized by morphic resonance. For a fuller description of the Hypothesis of Formative Causation see my books A New Science of Life, which is quite brief and somewhat technical, or my book The Presence of the Past, which is longer, but less technical, and more complete.

What evidence is there for the existence of morphic fields?

Morphic fields are postulated to account for the wholeness of self-organizing systems which can not be explained in terms of the parts alone and their interactions. My current research on bonds between pets and owners, the sense of being stared at, and other experiments described in my book Seven Experiments That Could Change the World is designed to provide evidence for morphic fields, and this evidence is already looking quite strong. Papers on recent experiments are currently in the press, and a listing can be found in the Scientific Publications section of this web site.

Evidence for morphic resonance comes from memory effects in nature, as discussed in my book The Presence of the Past, and from experiments on human psychology showing that it becomes easier to learn what other people have already learned. One phenomenon that suggests the existence of morphic resonance and morphic fields is the otherwise inexplicable rise in IQ that has taken place over the last few decades, the so-called "Flynn Effect".

How does your theory differ from the traditional mechanistic explanations of morphogenesis?

The mechanistic explanation of morphogenesis attempts to explain it in terms of molecules and interactions between them, particularly in terms of DNA and protein synthesis. This is a bottom-up approach, and can not explain the emergence of form. For example, genes code for the sequence of amino acids in proteins, but this can not even explain how the proteins fold up in the correct way to give the right three-dimensional structure.

Still less does it explain how proteins form cells, cells forms tissues, tissues form organs, and organs form organisms. The focus of research in conventional developmental biology is on genes, gene activation and proteins, but no more explains the development of form than the study of the delivering of building materials at a building site explains the structure of the house that is built there. For a detailed discussion of the mechanistic theory of morphogenesis, and how it differs from my own views, see my book The Presence of the Past.

His research is closely related to our inquiry on the subject: Can the Monist view account for ‘What is Life?’

Again, this returns to the primary objection to scientific materialism as a paradigm for explaining life. The objection to "randomness" is frequently raised by the mathematicians and physicists investigating information, autonomy, semiosis, complexity and intelligence --- but here we see a biologist also raising the objection. That is great news!

At bottom, this is the same objection raised by Intelligent Design supporters - that the "R" has to be removed from the formulation RM - NS > Species. It is comforting to me to see further evidence that that objection will be addressed, the disposition of the ID movement notwithstanding.

234 posted on 05/20/2005 8:32:44 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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