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To: general_re; betty boop; Ronzo
Thank you for your reply!

But, er, we have a disagreement on the definition of "self organizing complexity".

In everything I have read on the subject, self-organizing complexity occurs in closed systems - moreover, autonomous systems. Concerning evolution, Rocha's work is most informative:

Self-organization is seen as the process by which systems of many components tend to reach a particular state, a set of cycling states, or a small volume of their state space (attractor basins), with no external interference. This attractor behavior is often recognized at a different level of observation as the spontaneous formation of well organized structures, patterns, or behaviors, from random initial conditions (emergent behavior). The systems used to study this behavior computationally are referred to as discrete dynamical systems or state-determined systems, since their current state depends only on their previous state. They possess a large number of components or variables, and thus high-dimensional state spaces.

Snowflakes, on the other hand, are open to external interference. That is how they are formed:

Symmetry of Snowflakes

So that's the story. The intricate shape of a single arm is determined by the ever-changing conditions experienced by the crystal as it falls. Because each arm experiences the same conditions, however, the arms tend to look alike. The end result is a large-scale, complex, six-fold symmetric snow crystal. And since snow crystals all follow slightly different paths through the clouds, individual crystals all tend to all look different.

So again I assert there must be a "self" (autonomy) in order to have "self-organizing complexity".

The self-organization of snowflakes or quartz crystals neither implies nor requires agency, intelligent or otherwise.

It seems like I can't say diddly around here without a presumption that I am promoting Intelligent Design! The very definition of "self-organizing complexity" precludes external interference.

If it were shown that complexity in living systems is the result only of self-organizing complexity, then the Designer's role in ID would be limited to the inception algorithm and initial conditions - not punctuated here and there to give rise to functional molecular machinery, species, etc.

156 posted on 05/05/2005 10:17:39 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I don't see the utility of assigning it the term "self" all by itself - that term is heavily loaded, but the only way a snowflake can legitimately be said to have a "self" is in the most mundane sense, as a discrete collection of water molecules.

It seems like I can't say diddly around here without a presumption that I am promoting Intelligent Design!

But you are promoting ID. Okay, maybe not in that particular post right there, but still ;)

159 posted on 05/06/2005 5:26:12 AM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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