And in fact, in the sense that crystalline mineral deposits probably exist on Mercury and Venus, there's a certain amount of self-organization and entropy reduction there too - just not the sort we're interested in.
No doubt there is entropy reduction on Mercury & Venus! I doubt there's anyplace in the universe where you can escape it completely!
What you and Swenson and betty say makes sense (if I understand you correctly): biologicial life is the reuslt of entropy reduction; the 2nd Law holds true even at creation.
But the big difference between self-organizing systems such as crystals and biological life is that crystals--from what I understand--occur as a reduction in entropy, and any further reductions (less heat) doesn't hurt the crystal, as far as I know.
However, in biological systems, there seems to be a constant "struggle" to stay away from low entropy, as that means death. Plants convert the low-entropy energy provided by the sun to a higher form of entropy so that they don't die. But, reproduction aside, they will-- eventually--die anyway--return to a lower state. Seems like a waste of time to me!
We eat the plants along with the animals that eat the plants, so that we can maintain a higher level of entropy than our surroundings. But we too will eventually succumb to the laws of physics, and return to a low-entropy state.
So in order for 'life' to come about, it had to be the result of a reduction in entropy from that of it's immediate surroundings. Also, if I understand correctly, there has to be some sort of temperature flux at the time of "creation" since a constant, unfluxuating temperature doesn't create/change anything, you just have equilibrium.
After life comes about, there is a transition in the immediate surroundings (ecosystem?) so that life is now "surrounded" by a lower level of entropy than itself, which is where we are at today. However--thanks to plants--that lower level of entropy is used to generate a higher level of entropy (carbohydrates) through photosynthesis.
But a problem remains: if life came about as a result of a reduction in entropy, why now do life forms depend on low-entropy to sustain themselves? How did that transitition happen?
I think you have cause and effect backwards there - it's probably more accurate to say that biological life causes a local reduction in entropy. If that local reduction wasn't possible, life wouldn't be possible, but with a little energy the car can indeed go uphill.
But the big difference between self-organizing systems such as crystals and biological life is that crystals--from what I understand--occur as a reduction in entropy, and any further reductions (less heat) doesn't hurt the crystal, as far as I know.
Well, it assumes a form that's stable enough for our purposes. In the end, entropy always wins - if nothing else, the heat death of the universe will do it in.
However, in biological systems, there seems to be a constant "struggle" to stay away from low entropy, as that means death. Plants convert the low-entropy energy provided by the sun to a higher form of entropy so that they don't die.
Sure. The plant's chemical arrangement - and yours - is a lot less stable than the rock's, and requires a somewhat constant intake of energy in order to keep from falling apart. The rock's situation is somewhat less precarious, but then again, your life is probably more interesting than the rock's.
But, reproduction aside, they will-- eventually--die anyway--return to a lower state. Seems like a waste of time to me!
The rock, too. We won't be around to see it, but eventually everything does. Entropy always wins in the end, hence the famous restatement of the laws of thermodynamics: 1) You can't win. 2) You can't break even. 3) You can't quit the game.
So in order for 'life' to come about, it had to be the result of a reduction in entropy from that of it's immediate surroundings.,/I>
Again, the reduction in entropy is the result of life, not the other way around.
After life comes about, there is a transition in the immediate surroundings (ecosystem?) so that life is now "surrounded" by a lower level of entropy than itself, which is where we are at today.
I'm not sure I follow. You are a local reduction in entropy, in a sense. You take in energy, which allows you to continue to sit on top of the hill, but eventually you break down and roll downhill, and assume a state of higher entropy than you have now. Death takes us all, even the rocks ;)