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To: js1138

"I notice, for example, that ID calls itself scientific, and not Taoist or Buddhist or Christian or Marxist or Deist, or spiritualist or whatever. "

And this is fro two reasons:

1) if they said "religion" anywhere, you would dismiss them, and they would not have a say in the conversation that you would even bat an eye to.

and

2) Science, being a philosophy (reasoning, way of knowing, etc.) SHOULD include the idea that ID is a legitimate means to existance. Design is more readily observable than random chance. And Science's methodology professes that we can only assert what we observe.


119 posted on 05/03/2005 10:17:24 AM PDT by MacDorcha (Where Rush dares not tread, there are the Freepers!)
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To: dread78645

JohnDoedidit place mark


123 posted on 05/03/2005 10:21:17 AM PDT by dread78645 (Sarcasm tags are for wusses.)
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To: MacDorcha
Science, being a philosophy (reasoning, way of knowing, etc.) SHOULD include the idea that ID is a legitimate means to existance.

Okay, then. What would falsify ID?
132 posted on 05/03/2005 10:36:57 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: MacDorcha
2) Science, being a philosophy (reasoning, way of knowing, etc.) SHOULD include the idea that ID is a legitimate means to existance. Design is more readily observable than random chance. And Science's methodology professes that we can only assert what we observe.

Before I respond, let me suggest that you try using the spell checker button. I say this not as a put-down -- I'm a really bad speller and a worse typist -- but because your errors are chronic and detract from your argument.

Now to the argument.

ID is not wrong because I say it is wrong. It is simply not science. It does not argue scientifically; it does not engage in scientific research; it does not employ scientific methodology or scientific assumptions.

Science is not truth, nor is everything said by scientists necessarily true or correct. What science is, is a set of methodologies and assumptions, together with a history of facts, theories, codified regularities (laws), hypotheses, rules of thumb, instruments, uncodified observations.

The central hypothesis of science is that relationships between and among phenomena are regular and unchanging over time. You might detect in this statement an assumption that miracles don't happen. this assumption is not based on a proved fact that miracles don't happen; it is based on the fact that miracles are outside the bounds of what science can study.

It is also based on the experience that when phenomena such as disease, earthquakes, etc are studied, they turn out to be regular phenomena. And when psychic phenomena, spood bending, mind reading and such are studied carefully they turn out to involve fraud or misapprehension.

Getting to the central question of design -- it is obvious that living things have the appearance of design. The question is how to study the history of this appearance. One could make the assumption that every detail is specifically manufactured in the shop of some hyper-intelligent alien, or some omniscient being.

But some of the smaller details appear to be the result of observable processes. Dogs, for example, can be conformed to arbitrary shapes merely by breeding the closest approximations. From this we can derive the hypothesis that those variations of a species that result in the most offspring will be the dominant, or most frequent shape of the species.

The next question might be, how far can this shaping go, and can we find any mechanism in biology that would limit the range of variation. This is a scientifically posed question. It can be studied; it leads to testable hypotheses. No statement can be considered scientific unless it suggests questions that can be answered by experimentation or by observation and quantitative analysis.

144 posted on 05/03/2005 10:49:19 AM PDT by js1138 (e unum pluribus)
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To: MacDorcha; js1138

Philosophy legitimately includes the idea that "intelligent design" i.e. creation is a means to existance. This is a metaphysical question, though. It is not a scientific one. "Creation science" and "intelligent design" ask questions that science is ill equipped to answer. Where did life come from? Where did the universe come from? Why are we here? Is there a purpose to existance? These are all valid, interesting questions. However, they are merely not the kind of questions that science is able to answer. You are confusing science and philosophy, physics and metaphysics for the purpose of supporting your opinion that "intelligent design" deserves scientific study. These questions belong in philosophy class, not biology class.


152 posted on 05/03/2005 11:13:52 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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