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To: dubyaismypresident
Why don't you read the whole document, instead of just the NZ Herald write up?

"Therefore, in connection with the unicity and universality of the salvific mediation of Jesus Christ, the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. Just as there is one Christ, so there exists a single body of Christ, a single Bride of Christ: “a single Catholic and apostolic Church” "

"The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”."

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense;"

That one? So Catholics say Baptists and Presbyterians don't belong to a true church. Don't get offended if we return the favor. After all, good Presbyterians and reformed Baptists aren't permitted to marry Catholics.

70 posted on 04/27/2005 11:31:12 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: PAR35
"After all, good Presbyterians and reformed Baptists aren't permitted to marry Catholics."

You got that right. A very close family member and lifelong Baptist was forced to convert to Catholicism lest the husband's family object vehemently to the marriage. I couldn't believe how big a deal it was that she had to convert. I mean the groom's family would have disavowed their son and the marriage if she had not converted under duress. It was difficult for her and difficult foor the rest of us to watch the whole situation unfold.
78 posted on 04/27/2005 11:42:07 AM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: PAR35
That one? So Catholics say Baptists and Presbyterians don't belong to a true church. Don't get offended if we return the favor. After all, good Presbyterians and reformed Baptists aren't permitted to marry Catholics.

That's the authentic language of the document.

However, what you are doing is taking the Reformed definition of "church" (an invisible community of elect believers) and assuming that the Pope means the exact same thing when he uses the term.

So when a reformed believer says that a church is a "false" one with a "false" Gospel, he is saying that the Catholic Church is an organization which is opposed to the Gospel.

When the Pope uses the term "church" he uses it in the way Catholic theology has always defined it - the Church as a whole is a unified, visible organization created by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and continuing to this day in an ubroken line of succession.

A local church consists of a bishop (or episkopos or overseer) who holds his office in direct line of descent from the Apostles, and his congregation.

Therefore, local churches that have a bishop who can trace his succession to the Apostles are local churches that may (like a Greek Orthodox local church) be separated from the larger Church or may not be.

The SBC and Presbyterians, who specifically identify themselves as bishopless, are not local churches because they do not have a bishop with the succession - i.e. the Catholic Church does not hold that they are false organizations set up against Christ's Gospel.

We hold that they are communities of Christians who by their own acknowledgement lack bishops with apostolic succession.

Every SBCer and Presbyterian is united to the Church through their baptism and as a result have many elements of sanctification and truth, but they are unbishoped and therefore are unable to participate in the sacraments.

This is a logical conclusion of believing that the Church is a visible entity. It doesn't mean that the SBC is a "false" organization with a "false" Gospel but an incomplete organization with a mistaken interpretation of the true Gospel.

84 posted on 04/27/2005 11:50:37 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: PAR35

The true church is the Body of Christ, not a denomination of any sort. A true believer is one in whom Christ dwells. Period.


104 posted on 04/27/2005 12:25:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (Thank you, Lord, for FOUR MORE YEARS!!!)
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To: PAR35
That one? So Catholics say Baptists and Presbyterians don't belong to a true church.

Hey, you got "ecclesial community" that's not so bad

Don't get offended if we return the favor.

I wouldn't get offened at all. Obviously you'd believe you are right, as so do I.

After all, good Presbyterians and reformed Baptists aren't permitted to marry Catholics.

Interesting. I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

126 posted on 04/27/2005 4:31:38 PM PDT by NeoCaveman (no electrons were harmed in the making of this tagline, well maybe just a few...)
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