Posted on 04/26/2005 7:55:09 AM PDT by jan in Colorado
Give them time, Jan--liberals ALWAYS find reasons to oppose home and self defense.
So true Ari...as well as anything else that is GOOD for America!
Your "example" is an unfunny attempt to bait me into a flame exchange. Unworthy of reasoned debate. It's just not worth it to me, RS.
Come, I've seen you do better.
Now that IS something we agree on!
Bravo, Evolution! I am alarmed at the complacency of many American Jews, who appear to feel safe and remote from the viscious anti-Jewish attacks, both criminal and sanctioned, coming out of Europe and Asia; attacks which become bolder and further reaching with each passing day.
Just this week, the AUT in Britain voted to oust two major Israeli Universities by a vote that permitted no opposition. This should be a red flag for anyone who has studied the rise of the Third Reich and remembers the Jewish students being denied entrance to the University of Vienna in Austria, and the Jews who were murdered within its walls.
Islam is current day Third Reich, and its adherents are the current day Nazis. There is no nice way to say this, it's not just anti-Zionism anymore, it's anti-semitism. Loud and clear.
Awesome, compelling response AAC. Nothing to add to the post, just kudos and applause to the author. And my esteem, sir.
Jan, I know you are probably thinking the same; Texas Cowboy would be proud.
Blessings on you both (and you too, TC, when you get to read your messages, which I pray will be soon.)
I have opted, of late, to just stand back and watch what happens on some of these threads, I am not in the mood to verbally duel with the usual contrarians who have nothing to say, nothing to add, and seem to merely be trying to cause a Flame war, as you have noted, Ari.
That is not how "friends" argue, and those of us on FR should consider each other friends. After all. we are all supposed to be on the same team.
the arguments put forth by some of these others, especially the name calling -bigot, fascist, etc.- are not examples of how conservatives express a difference of opinion. I have only been called a bigot, or fascist by those who lean far to the left and think Kerry was a saviour, and Clinton was misunderstood!
So, I'll watch and let the left wing parrots squawk, under the guise of being "real" Americans.
You guys keep up the good work, and please keep pinging me, there are times when I might like getting into the fray again.
BTW, AAC, your opponent on your last response reminds me of another horse's patoot that was banned, a geek from MI as well, he took out fastattacksailor before he "exploded".
Texas Cowboy, hang in there my FRiend...you must be getting tons of prayers!
I'm going to chime in and make it a hat-trick. I enjoyed AAC's excellent riposte to the ill -informed poster. I, too have been avoiding FR-in part because there seems to be an ever increasing number of posters here that seem to avoid true discussion and enjoin in name-calling and other child-like behavior.
Perhaps we all know the type. For example, those who take posts out of context and try to say "GOTCHA" Those are the people that have a bunker-like mentality---or are plain out ignorant. They have little, if any, real-life experience or knowledge to base an proper argument on. They prattle on and they belch gas like some impacted bull.
As FD diplomatically pointed out, they are contrarian. I like calling them for what they are: instigators--and not of the thoughtful variety. They love to cause problems--that's all.
They are worse than trolls--they are frauds.
OK so now that you seem to understand what I am asking just what does the "stopped tolerating" mean in your post 20 ?
"And it's about time Jews stopped tolerating people who would gladly see them dead."
I'm serious, just what action would they have to do to fullfill your suggestion that they stop tolerating people who would gladly see them dead ?
Not at all, but it also will prove a point that militant Imans will lie to THEIR OWN people when they get desperate enough.
"Now that IS something we agree on!"
Dare I press my luck and ask if you would agree that these militant Imans would also lie about what the Koran contains if it were to suit their purpose ?
>"OK so now that you seem to understand what I am asking just what does the "stopped tolerating" mean in your post 20 ?
"And it's about time Jews stopped tolerating people who would gladly see them dead."
I'm serious, just what action would they have to do to fullfill your suggestion that they stop tolerating people who would gladly see them dead ?"<
I think I know just how this issue should be addressed. First, I'll issue a two part caveat:
1) I am not a Jew, either ethnically, or religiously. I am a Christian by my choice (and G_d's election). My G_d is the G_d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the same as theirs - but not the muslims.
2) I love all the Jews who love their G_d and obey Him, and respect those who do not, even so.
Ever since the lazy, brutal, child-raping polygamist false prophet muhammad began converting to Islam, killing or forcibly banishing Jews from the Arab city of Medina in 622, and soon afterward from the whole Arabian peninsula, there has been animosity, emnity, raw boiling hatred on the part of the muslims toward all Jews.
It has remained so for 1,381 years, because the Jews refused to recognise the primacy of Islam, or the deity status of allah/uzza.He is/was the false god of the moon or planet venus, selected from amongst a pantheon of pagan deities worshipped by the wandering marauders and merchants of the Arab peninsula, and metamorphosed by design by muhammad for the purpose of creating from the fabric of the familiar, a monotheistic religion as a unifying impulsion for the Arabs. Something which might elevate his own power and wealth as it's supposed prophetic leader, and the brutal, backwards, and inferior society of the Medina/peninsular Arabs on a broader scale.
The Qur'an is neither holy, nor inspired. It is totally dependent on the Torah (first five books of Moses, commonly called the Pentateuch among English-speaking biblical scholars) and al-uzza related pantheistic traditional mythologies; while at the same time being plagiarised from the Torah, it is poorly done so. Whether originally unintentional or deliberate, accounts lifted from the Torah range from amusingly erroneous in inconsequential things, to wildly inaccurate regarding critical details. These errata cover a host of errors from misrelated accounts of historical events (which were widely known in their day)to fundamental departures in points of theology including, but not limited to: the events prophesied by the prophets and their outcome, the names of God, practical strictures of diet and how believers were to worship G_d in the temple and in their everyday lives, the character and nature of G_d, the primacy of His commandments...and so on.
No G_d-fearing Hebrew would willingly accept a change to well-known facts about his own people's history, a change toward heretical doctrine which might condemn not only him, but also his whole family with him.
Likewise they would not accept a man as a new prophet of G_d who said his new prophecies superseded all they had known before, claimed his words and dictates were holy writ, while he offered them nothing to satisfy their G_d-given standards for testing the veracity of his prophetic office.
Muhammad was enraged, and predictably the full Qur'an reflected his "inspired" hatred for the religious group which opposed him morally, theologically, politically, and in the sreets and temples.
In the Qur'an are ennumerable commands for the muslim to kill the Jew and the Christian (for Christ had already come to earth, been crucified and risen) where they may be found, many more commands and imprecations to kill them, cause them injury and pain, torture them, than there are to show them any semblance of mercy.
Generally, the commands regarding mercy were observed during times when muhammadanism' practitioners found themselves outnumbered and or outgunned in small communities, medium-sized cities, major metropolises, and city-states and nation-states. Every time they gained the sufficiency of numbers, they discarded those commands like they were meaningless, and took to abusing, oppressing torturing, murdering, raping, and exterminating the Jews, Christians and nonbelievers they had lived amongst. They were skilled practitioners of the deadly art of political assassination, using it to effect a void of strong leadership into which they would step.
There are passages in the Qur'an which reference alla-uzza giving his believers sanction to lie deliberately to the "infidels" in order to buy time or create whatever public facade was needed to advance "his" religion. In fact, allah refers to himself as being deceitful and having purposes he is unwilling to share equally with all men, and quite willing to mislead many about. (Now there's a god we can all get behind, right? No?)
The spread of Islam was propagated by compulsion, compulsion effected by violence, bloodshed, political intrigue, and outright war. There has never been a single muslim "revival" based in peace upon the transformation of lost human hearts and souls, like many notable Christian revivals through history, nor upon a massive voluntary repentence of God's people when the preaching of his prophet convicted them of their sins as a people such as happened when Jonah, bleached by the gastric juices of a whale, and no doubt stinking to high heaven, wandered through the streets of the great city, Nineveh. Even a powerful King, under no threat but the Lord's judgment, put on sackcloth and ashes and humbled himself in the dust, pleading for mercy.
Alla-uzza has never raised anyone from the dead; in fact muhammad and his followers flatly said that Muhammad was greater than Christ (who was only a prophet), and that the claim that Christ had been crucified was a lie, a sinful and grievous error against allah-uzza, and was one of the several reasons the Christians stood condemned to hell. Allah never gave the Holy spirit to any man - indeed he claimed not to have one, but to be only one person, and that all other claims were heretical, punishable by death.
The only times muslims have suffered Jews and/or Christians to live unmolested is when it was enforced upon them by military defeat, lack of numbers, lack of resources to make war to change that status quo.
They have never stricken any of those commands from the Qur'an, never changed their point of view about, nor their hatred for the Jews, and they have never in almost 1,400 years deviated from trying to carry out the extermination of the Jews and effect the exclusive, intolerant domination of Islam by the forced absence of every other religion.
In light of that, the non religious Jews should cease and desist voicing any defense, excuse or justification of muslims who breathe threats and murder against Jews and Christians. They should stop trying to understand them in the context of guilt, "Gee, they're so angry! Maybe all they need is some understanding, and kindness. Maybe somebody violated their civil rights. Maybe if we give them their own land to live in...maybe if we give them more land to live on...maybe if we give them OUR land that we worked and slaved and sweated and sacrificed to improve and build our lives upon, then they'll be happier, nicer people and they won't talk about killing us all while we sleep."
"Maybe if we learn to hate ourselves, if some of us will go away and kill ourselves then they will not have to be angry at us for making them do it; then they will live in peace."
Stop that kind of dialogue that is misrepresented as "tolerant", stop laying down and feeling badly that the muslims had to wait so long for it to happen...Start standing up to the mullahs' and imams' bullying words in the media, start contradicting them everytime they lie, cheat, steal, excuse murder, and revise history to cast themselves as victims of some exaggerated or fabricated injustice.
Start speaking in a clear, strong, unequivocal voice opposing them on every front, questioning their motives at every turn, bluntly calling a terrorist a terrorist (not an insurgent, a resistance fighter, or an anti-Zionist) and demanding that the muhammadans do likewise among their own, meting out meaningful and swift justice, and condemnation for all such acts of terror.
The Israelis should not cede one square centimeter of their land to "palestine"; the terrorists have not earned it, are not entitled to it, and do not deserve to stand on it. They have no valid historical claim to it. If they threaten violence to try to take it away, meaningful violence should be threatened in return. Kill one Israeli citizen, whether civilian, military, religious, or political figure, expect to have ten PLO/PA terrorist "soldiers" or leaders waxed.
Israel should close, fortify, and militarise their borders with unfriendly neighbors. American Jews should cease and desist apologising for being Jewish; they should proactively go to work exposing the history of muhammadans.
It should be clearly understood and identified publicly that they are in opposisition to one another not because of Jewish extremists, nor Islamic extremist fanatics, but because of the origins of Islam, because of its basic mainstream principles and doctrines as expressed in the Qur'an and reinforced widely by the majority of imams and mullahs teaching in the mosques and schools (not just the wahhabi sect) - even if those precepts are tacitly left out of the public dialogue for the sake of creating a more palatable moderate facade.
Not only should the Jews stop tolerating such folk and their behavior, but also they should cease expressing any trust whatsoever in Islamists, or in groups which come to the support of Islamists. The Islamists should be politically isolated and left out of civil discourse until they demonstrate a willingness and a propensity to "police their own" with verifiable effectiveness!
It should go without saying that they should be kept out of political power in all lands which are not their own - especially until they grant equal education, voting, and property ownership rights to women, and redress for the maltreatment foisted upon women by mainstream Islam. Absent all that, they cannot be trusted to have a sincere desire to be counted among civilised nations, and do not deserve a place among them.
That's for starters.
A.A.C.
Truly, I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
How is Israel a threat to the US? It was not Israelis who piloted planes loaded with innocent people into the WTC and Pentagon. Israel is the only true friend America has in the Middle East.
And that you can compare the treatment of Israeli citizens at the hands of the Palestinian jihadists with Israel's tempered response is incredible to me. I suppose machine gunning Israeli children cowering under their beds is an acceptable form of "resistance"?
It is posts like this one that scare me the most. I will not expound upon how I am frightened as this would just become one more disagreement between two people who both love America but disagree on how to protect the great country we have. I truly believe that Isreal is more of a threat to the United States than any given Islamist country. The way Isreal has treated Palestine is certainly the largest cause of the grief in the middle east.
Start the countdown clock now. :)
Calling someone a bigot because you disagree with them is typical of the leftist liberal who resorts to namecalling like "racist", "bigot" when they can no longer hold up their end of a debate. I suggest you find another way to express yourself. If you read the rules of FR, you will see that your remarks are not appropriate in this forum.
Why try to improve on an excellent response? Yes, this is what I meant, AAC.
RS? What HE said.
Gee, I could say that the PalestiniansuicideHOMICIDE bombers aren't people but are more like wild animals, but that would be a high insult to animals everywhere...........
Mark Steyn Link Excerpt:Just as revealing was the reaction from the European media. In the American press, you read things like: "An observer to the bomb-blast scene described a dead young girl, perhaps 10 or 12, lying on the ground with her eyes open, looking as if she was surprised." For Europe, on the other hand, the main significance of this development was that it was "unhelpful" to the "peace process". Before I'm accused of being more upset about dead Jewish than dead Muslim kids, let me say that I take people at their own estimation: in the Palestinian Authority schools, they teach their children about the glories of martyrdom; indeed, the careers guidance counsellor appears to have little information on alternative employment prospects; at social events, the moppets are dressed up as junior jihadi, with toy detonators and play bombs. It's not that I place less value on Palestinian lives, but that Chairman Arafat and his chums in Hamas do. So does Saddam Hussein, whose government (the subject of an admiring article in this week's Spectator) gives $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide bomber. So does the Arab League, which at last year's summit passed a resolution hailing the "spirit of sacrifice" of the Palestinian "martyrs" and thus licensed Wednesday's massacre. As for the "peace process", those Europeans who, just a few months ago, were urging the Americans to cease operations for Ramadan evidently feel no compunction to demand from Chairman Arafat and his dark subsidiaries any similar "bombing pause" for Passover.
In the days after September 11, we were told that Muslims had great respect for their fellow "people of the book" - ie, Jews and Christians. This ought to be so: after all, the dramatis personae of the Koran include Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, Jesus and the Virgin Mary. It's one thing to believe that the Israelis are occupiers and oppressors and that the Zionist state should not exist. But no Muslim with any understanding of his shared heritage could in good conscience blow up a Passover Seder. It marks a new low in the Palestinians' descent into nihilism - though, as usual, the silence of the imams is deafening. As for the nonchalance of the Europeans, that too should not surprise us: in my experience, the Continent's Christians, practising and nominal, find the ceremonies of Jewish life faintly creepy, notwithstanding that these were also the rituals by which their own Saviour lived.
But this year, when the Christians' solar calendar and the Jews' lunar calendar have coincided and Easter and Passover fall together, it's a safe bet that George W Bush will make the connection. The first time I ever heard him speak, he spoke openly about his faith and about Christ in a way that would be unimaginable for a British politician. He will know all the details - "the baby tried to crawl away, but it died, too".......................
Before I'm accused of being more upset about dead Jewish than dead Muslim kids, let me say that I take people at their own estimation: in the Palestinian Authority schools, they teach their children about the glories of martyrdom; indeed, the careers guidance counsellor appears to have little information on alternative employment prospects; at social events, the moppets are dressed up as junior jihadi, with toy detonators and play bombs.
Israelis are taking the image at face value
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